Kew/Algoma Salmon, What am I doing wrong?

[GBTyeeII]

I need some help guys. I am a novice when it comes to running my own boat for Salmon. I have been out on Kinns Sport Fishing and Reel Action and needless to say I paid attention and caught some fish. I'm trying to do that now on my own boat, and I can't seem to get any bites when others are reeling them in.  What am I doing wrong? By all reports, the bite was on out of Algoma which I went out of today at 4:00am

I'm running a Mid 90's Lund 16ft Tyee II with a 100hp Mariner outboard. I don't have a fishhawk or anything similar to get the actual in water lure speed, but per a GPS with the boat just in gear it runs around 2.5-3.0MPH. Thinking his was too fast, I have tried a 36" drag bag off the side which per GPS slows me down to 1.5-2.0MPH.

I don't have any down riggers but I have two Dipseys set at 3 to dive left and right of each side of the boat. They're the medium sized ones and I have given them a fair amount of line to get them down. I have run them out 200-225ft at times to get down. (40# braid)

I am running spoons of various size and color and no luck. They are hooked onto 30# test fluorocarbon leader which is about 8ft long. That's hooked to a 12" snubber, which is hooked to the dipsy divers. The main line I'm using is Cabelas brand RipCord in 40# test.

What is the new guy doing wrong??? I have probably 24hrs in the boat (3-4 different trips/different days) with NO bites. It's getting really frustrating. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[ZachEno]

You are running a little too slow. Also, are you running any flasher/fly combos or meat rigs? What depth of water have you been fishing?

[Dr Hook]

As above, you may need to be running in that 2 - 2.5 range.   I'll usually run at least one Spindoctor/fly off my dipsy's this time of year. 

One more thing, you may be running your dipsy's a bit low at 4 AM if they're out 200-225.  I'll usually start them out 100-125 and lengthen my distance as it gets brighter.

[jmohunts]

And my GPS speed over ground is always a bit faster than my Depth raider at the ball. I have to be going at least 3, + at times, depending on current, to be 2.5 at ball.

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[stcroixx09]

i would suggest adjusting speed like mentioned above, also keep in mind trolling angle can also be key. if you can afford couple more dipsey rods i like to run 2 out both sides so i can cover more depths with them. this year my inside dipseys have been real good both set on 1.5 0ne out 175 other 135 out i always run white flasher crush glow tape with little boy blue fly on the 175. ill be in kewaunee whole week of kd tournament if you happen to be around

[GBTyeeII]

12 hours ago, ZachEno said:

You are running a little too slow. Also, are you running any flasher/fly combos or meat rigs? What depth of water have you been fishing?

Really!?!?!   That's the one thing I did NOT expect to hear. I have been trying to slow the boat down, not speed it up. I have been fishing in anything from 90 to 200ft. The latest DNR fishing report says the bite was 120-300ft of water and 60-80ft down... I so kept into the 150ft range.

 

4 hours ago, jmohunts said:

And my GPS speed over ground is always a bit faster than my Depth raider at the ball. I have to be going at least 3, + at times, depending on current, to be 2.5 at ball.

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Thank you... Appreciate the info. Excellent to know what the GPS vs. In water lure speeds are.

 

5 hours ago, Dr Hook said:

As above, you may need to be running in that 2 - 2.5 range.   I'll usually run at least one Spindoctor/fly off my dipsy's this time of year. 

One more thing, you may be running your dipsy's a bit low at 4 AM if they're out 200-225.  I'll usually start them out 100-125 and lengthen my distance as it gets brighter.

Thanks for the info. At about 4:45 the dipseys were around 130ft of line out and I work them down and up through day by feeding more line. I have been doing some reading in the past and know there are a lot of what people are referring to as "Suicide Kings" that will some out of deeper water and slam the lures in the shallows. Plus, I think all fish would prefer to come up to hit rather than dive down...

So, you are all thinking I need MORE speed?

[GBTyeeII]

12 hours ago, ZachEno said:

You are running a little too slow. Also, are you running any flasher/fly combos or meat rigs? What depth of water have you been fishing?

I have one flasher fly combo.... The standard Howie fly and a "Dragon Slayer" flasher. When I was out with Kinns last fall, all the hits came on it, so that the first, and only, one I have at this point.

[Towerboss]

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[ZachEno]

I would recommend Fire Flies. They are a Wisconsin company and make some awesome trolling flies. Also, some Spin Doctors and meat rigs.


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[gmfishon]

add more flashers and fly's.and meat to the spread. Try though to picture how the spread looks to the fish. One is not necessarily better than the other. Here are examples. All spoons maybe close together or a few spoons and the meat and ff combos. The all spoon thing could look like a school of bait. The ff could shout them down vers sometimes brings them in. Main thing no matter what - dont get discouraged, experiment and play. I have a hunch speed range will be your answer. We all started this way. When I first went several trips without a fish , I never thought one day I would lose count of how many we pulled in. Pay attention to all details including speed. It will happen. Also if any experienced guys want to take you or ride with you take them up on it.

 

 

 

[Mega Byte]

Do be afraid to get on the radio and ask guys what SOG they are trolling, which direction they are trolling and what the speed is at the ball.  Someone should get back with you.  Your ideal SOG will often be different depending on the direction you are trolling.  I agree with the others, run some meat rigs or flies.  I usually run my meat rigs at 2.2 mph at the ball.  Add a couple of planner boards and short copper setups so you can target steelhead which are usually higher in the water column.  They seem to like orange spoons up high.  Good luck.

[fishing machine]

Find a boat that you see catching fish, troll beside him, but not to close!  You can adjust your speed to match his, then use that sog speed for a good place to start.  If you are near a charter that is catching fish pay attention to his direction of troll as well because most likely if he is catching fish, he is trolling the correct speed along with the correct angle to the current.    Also run lures like J-plugs and flashers like spin doctors that are not as speed sensitive as spoons or dodgers so they work and will catch fish even if your speed isn't quite right.  This approach has served me well over the years.  Hope this helps.

[fishing machine]

spin doctors or some other type of flasher with a fly or meat rig tend to work better off dipseys than spoons do.  It also sounds like you need a couple planer boards and a lead rig as well as a copper rig.  Dipsey don't always work.  I also recommend using a mag dipsey on a 1 and 1/2 setting with a wire rod or at least a braided line to get the depth  you need. set that at 100 and slowly let it creep out till you get bit. or it starts banging bottom. then you have a good idea what depth you are running with that setting at that speed.  Good luck.  Also go to the fish cleaning station or the dock or even the bait shop and ask them which specific bait to use and how deep they are catching fish on it, and with what type of rigging, ie: 300 copper, 10 color, high or low diver wire or braid and what setting and how far out.

[RedRider]

How far is your fly behind the flasher( end of loop to end of hook)?  on my boat 28 works best.

[GBTyeeII]

5 hours ago, fishing machine said:

spin doctors or some other type of flasher with a fly or meat rig tend to work better off dipseys than spoons do.

Tell me more about the flys and meat rigs. Again, I'm a novice so I have only seen spoons and flasher/fly run. I have no idea how to set the others up or what kind of meat to run. I'm open suggestions!!

40 minutes ago, RedRider said:

How far is your fly behind the flasher( end of loop to end of hook)?  on my boat 28 works best.

I run the main #40 braid to the dipsey. Then I have a rod length of #30 fluorocarbon and 12" snubber combined, so it's roughly 8'6" from Dipsey to spoon.

And I would love to run some different setups, but I have only TWO RODS/LINES. I need to get some fish running off of these before I get crazy and start buying more rods or copper lines. Etc. But I do appreciate the suggestions.

[jrpiasko]

First off Dont feel bad I have thousands invested in shimano gear, 20ft pro v, kicker, fish hawk, coppers etc and I have had issues getting fish to join on board me this yr. it happens.  I have been out 4 times and caught 2 fish on my wire dipseys.  Below are a couple things to consider.  

Clean your baits the day/night before.  They might have weird scent on them.  I use lemon joy.  Also grab a bottle of salmon feast and coat the lure to cover up any scent that is on your hands.

I agree with other posts.  Run the line out 80 to 125 feet during low light with glow flashers or glow spoons.  Since your boat is tough to get around 2-2.5 mph then I would  use spoons.  When the sun is up, send the bait back 200 to 300 and get out deep.

Best of luck and hang in there. 

 

[fishing machine]

you did not say what size dipsey you use or what ring you have on it.  That makes a difference on how deep it will run, there are some charts out there that will help you get close.    Behind the dipsey run a snubber then 3- 5 foot leader of 30#, then a flasher of some sort, spin doctor etc,  then the rule of thumb is from top of loop to hooks on your fly leader should be 3 times the length of your flasher give or take a little, as red rider said his are 28", so that is his entire fly leader length behind his flasher, after his dipsey, snubber, and leader for the total length you need so you can still net your fish after reeling your dipsey very near the tip of your rod. With an 8 1/2 foot rod you can probably still  have an overall length of 10 foot, unless you are by yourself.  Meat rigs by dreamweaver and others are already pre made, with an overall length around 4 foot or so, start out at that length and adjust from there as you feel comfortable to do so, or on the advice of someone who is have good luck with a different length.  Capt. John King has a video on the proper roll of a meat rig, google him for more info on that.  His videos helped me learn to run meat rigs.  The fish I am holding in the pic was caught by my daughter on a meat rig behind an 8" spin doctor on a braid dipsey set up, it weighed 26#  and was the first fish ever on a meat rig.  You will probably have to shorten your leader from your snubber to your flasher to only 2-3 foot if you use a 4 plus foot meat rig.  Speed is very important any salmon presentation.  If you want to use spoons with dipseys, stretch them out away from it if you can maybe use a slide diver which solves your leader length problem.  Toss the spoon over the side, just don't engage the dipsey to dive and watch the action of your spoon, make sure it isn't just a lazy side to side but darts and rolls then darts and rolls back the other way. If it just rolls over and over you are too  fast and if its lazy too slow.  Wave action is your friend as your boat will speed up and slow down imparting a a varying action to your spoon as it it speeds up and down.  You can also zig zag to  add a left to right motion to your spread.  This also changes speed and depth  of your dipsey, inside slower deeper outside faster higher that will help vary things as well.  Pay attention when you get bit and use that knowledge to help improve your presentation.  Good luck!

[fishing machine]

Take a walk on the docks, ask the captains what rigs are working best.  Look to see what is hanging on there rods.  Stop by anglers avenue, they should be able to set you up with the hottest baits for the current bite, as well as depth to run your dipseys.

[GBTyeeII]

What should the spoons look like going through the water at the correct speed?

What should a flasher/fly combo look like going through the water?

I have being doing some research and it appears you want the spoons to do for lack of a better term, some bobbing and weaving. So it's going through the water and not really spinning per say, but darting back and forth with the hook side almost flicking up and down.

And I missed it before, but I am using #1 Dispy Divers.

[GBTyeeII]

Hi was out again today in Algoma from 6a to 10a and didn't get a bite. I lurked anywhere from 80 to 130 FOW. 

I ran spoons off the dipsy, pushed the throttle up as suggested and worked the line out slowly as the day went on. Still, nothing. 

Running as mentioned above, the 40# braid to #1 dipsy. The leader is a total of 8ft with a 12" snubber included coming off the dipsy to the spoons. I run a variety of sizes, including ProFoils as well as ProFoil magnums.

 

With more throttle, the GPS(Garmin Nuvi for cars) was reading 3.5mph to 5.2mph and fish finder was similar but slower by .2 or so depending on direction. Before I would be in the 2.5-3.5mph range at just out of neutral. So I ran into the waves today which were going SW to NE. To get some more speed I ran with them as well. I also fished in the ditch both running directly at the sun and away from.... still nothing.

Im not ready to give up, but I'm getting discouraged.

And I found fish, just didn't find bites.

 

 

[rbeck]

I sent you a pm with some trip notes my son took while we were out there a couple of weeks ago.  Send some pictures over of you setup.  We believe your leader length is too long...should 4 - 6' and it also sounds like the snubber is on the wrong side of the Dispy.

[FishKnocker]

hang in there, you will be hooked up soon! lot's of good tips above, 2.9gps speed works good for salmon, run that one flasher behind the dipsey at all times, I think the flasher gets them in from quite a distance - some guys laugh, but we've had some luck running dipsey, flasher & spoons - NW Pacific style, 42" leader to spoon.  we haven't had too much luck this year w/ downriggers, seems like all the hits lately on the dipseys.  I agree w/ the early morning, 120-130' back on #3 settings, working out to 240' or so mid morning to mid afternoon - sometimes turning will trigger the followers, s-curves or big figure 8's if not too many other boats, then remember the angle when you get the strike -

[GBTyeeII]

Here is what I'm running .... (that doesn't work!)

 

(IMAGE ATTACHED)

[rbeck]

Everything looks alright.  I would try shortening my leader after the snubber quite a bit. How are you attaching the spoon to the leader?

 

[GBTyeeII]

One of the clip/swivel things.  I don't know the name of it but half is a swivel the other half is a loop that wraps around itself. So you start the spoon hole on it and work it around 1 turn so it seats down into the bigger loop.