speed doubts

[young gun]

Hey you guys i was just looking back on last year and was thinking i was trolling too slow. I dont have a Fish hawk but i have a lowrance hds8. If you coud answer these questions i would appreciate it. ( I will post some reports when i get up in Michigan.)

1.) do the lowrance hds surface speeds tend to be low compared to a fish hawk?

2.) when trolling the pier heads do people troll slower due to no down currents?

3.) what apprx degree angle should my downrigger cable be if i am trolling a 10lb cannon ball?

4.) if fishing grand haven what is the average down speen diffrance from your speed over ground? example: 2.8sog to 2.4 down speed going with the current with the difference of .4.:confused:

[highpointdf]

Fished Grand Haven a lot last year. Here is what I can say. Surface speed and speed at the ball were completely different. So there is really no true answer to that question. There were times they were 2+MPH different. The currents were terrible and they seemed to change directions quite often. If you do not have a fish hawk or one of the others that will give you speed at the ball, you were lost, or guessing based on the angle of the downrigger cable, which I am not good at. watch the speed of the charter boats and try to go about the same while heading in that direction. I know I did not answer your questions, but I am not sure there is a right one.

[SeaCatMich]

Without a down-speed unit the best guide for me is my diver rods. With a "normal" bend in them I set my drag so that they will creep if I get going too fast. No audible signal for going too slow, but can watch the rod bend and speed up until the drag slips and then back back the throttle off a little. Even with a down-speed on the boat the diver rods help to let me know if the boat is turning as the one on the outside will start clicking. Since that's the sound I want to hear when a fish hits it always gets my attention.

[Rascal Trophy Fishing]

Ryan makes some valid points for common sense and reference. I would also say that watching charterboats may or may not be good for speed. Take the fact that most of us run a 12#-14# ball, not a light 10# ball. Some guys have even heavier rigger balls. Thus your sog may be similar, but the rigger ball's speed will not. That will be the most important factor, presentation and speed at the ball. That's my two cents anyhow. And you can find fish hawk's and other models reconditioned/used sometimes if you scan the classifieds. Down speed/temp. units and autopilots are some of the best electronics you will ever invest in imho.

[Gnarf]

As far as channel fishing:

I usually run slow. very slow. but in holland channel last year combat fishing everybody was moving fast, 2.7 - 3.3 SOG.

Instead of being ran over and causing a headache for others i sped up to about the same.

I did catch a few but find myself going slower to be better, at least for the spread i was running.

[SeaCatMich]

Ryan makes some valid points for common sense and reference. I would also say that watching charterboats may or may not be good for speed. Take the fact that most of us run a 12#-14# ball, not a light 10# ball. Some guys have even heavier rigger balls. Thus your sog may be similar, but the rigger ball's speed will not. That will be the most important factor, presentation and speed at the ball. That's my two cents anyhow. And you can find fish hawk's and other models reconditioned/used sometimes if you scan the classifieds. Down speed/temp. units and autopilots are some of the best electronics you will ever invest in imho.

Ed, I would disagree a little with this. The heavier downrigger weights are going to reduce the blow back but are not going to affect the speed they are running at. The boat and consequently the rigger balls are all moving at the same speed. How fast the balls are showing to be going on the down-speed is relative to the current at the depth of the ball. So if one boat with 15# balls is going 2.5 over ground, another boat with 10# balls can match that speed, the balls will also be going the same speed BUT due to the blow back of the lighter balls the depth will be slightly less. Heavier down currents will exaggerate the degree of blow back and depth difference.

[Far Beyond Driven]

Dial your speed to your diver rods. Rigger angle will change based on depth, current, weights, and all kinds of stuff. But if you set up like sea cat said and can repeat it, good to go.

I don't have down speed on my row boat and it takes literally a ton of fish some years...

[Rascal Trophy Fishing]

I was going by field experience Ryan, not science. But, I would be interested to see any link that would prove the science, as it sounds right. I guess the fact that fish hawks vs. other speed/temp. probes could differ in calibration and readout, would make a difference. Also, the current could differ given location, even if boats are fairly close together. Lastly, I'm referring to offshore fishing, not channel fishing. Thanks.

[UBDSLO1]

For me, I just the downrigger cables as my speed adjustment. I don't have a speed/temp probe. A slight angle back, with bubblles coming off the cable is what I go by. I've done really well by this. I really need to step up my game with a new gps/graph and speed temp probe this year.

[hear fishy fishy]

Everyday is different but I know you don't need a fish hawk to do well either. Sog can work but it often change for your troll direction. If you marking fish and they are not biting keep changing direction and or speed. Makesure you pay attention when you do get a bite to what was happening and try and match that or adjust a little more. You can watch other boats for direction of troll but I would stay away form matching they're speed. Different programs need different speeds.

[Play Dough]

I was going by field experience Ryan, not science. But, I would be interested to see any link that would prove the science, as it sounds right. I guess the fact that fish hawks vs. other speed/temp. probes could differ in calibration and readout, would make a difference. Also, the current could differ given location, even if boats are fairly close together. Lastly, I'm referring to offshore fishing, not channel fishing. Thanks.

You mean the science that says anything attached to your boat will travel at the same speed over ground as your boat? Guess I don't understand. It's an elementary concept. When is the last time you had one of your cannonballs pass your boat or end up a mile behind?

[Priority1]

I have a Fish Hawk but I also rely on the Dipsy rod bend the rigger blow back and sometimes even the musical sound of wind blowing across the rigger cables. The more you are on the water the more tuned you get to the different variables of fishing. You can tell if you are sideways to the current the way your lines and rigger cables sway. I'd trade a Fish Hawk any day for one good man aboard that can read these signs. Of course the SOG better be a good helmsman and netter too if I'm giving up my Fish Hawk.

[bowbender]

Don't have a fish hawk yet so your drag on the rigger rod sounds good. Do you set the drag shallow right at the boat, at the SOG you want then put it back the distance you want for your depth and just play with your speed to where it is almost pulling line? Just getting back into big lake fishing so lots of other stuff on my wish list for my set up in front of the fish hawk.

[bowbender]

Ryan, I don't have a fish haqk yet, I like the rigger rod drag set up, but I have question do you set your drag right at the boat using SOG speed then let it back the distance you want for your desired depth, and just tweek the speed to where the drag is just holding?

[young gun]

Dont worry I just got a used 840 head with new cables, triducer, and a X-4D probe for $250. Great Dallas huh? Haha

[SeaCatMich]

BowBender, two different ways mentioned by me and FBD to do the same thing

1) Diver rod method:

From years of experience I pretty much know when the bend in the diver rod "looks right". With my Power Pro 9' Talora diver rods the rod holders are set one notch above horizontal and the rod tips are just a few inches above the water. I set the drag so if I make a turn, line will slip on a rod on the outside of the turn and I'll hear the clicker on the reel. Only way to really tell you what that speed is will be to look at the bend in the diver rod(s) when you get a hit, then try to replicate it.

2) Downrigger wire angle method:

This is it is watching the angle of the downrigger wire, not the angle of the rods. The drag on the reels is set so that line does not slip when you put the amount of bend in the rod you want. This has little to do with reading the angle of the downrigger wire. What FBD was talking about as variables to this method are due to different downrigger weights, diameter of the wire on the rigger, how high the rigger boom is off the water, depth of the ball, and the lure being used.

15# weights are not gong to have as much blow back as 8, 10 or 12# weights, but if you have the same weight on all of your riggers then the angle will be consistent from rigger to rigger.

The deeper your rigger is set, the more blow back and greater the angle will be. Heavier weights will help reduce this blow back angle.

Thicker diameter rigger wire and lures with more drag (11" flashers compared to spoons and plugs) will add to the blow back on the rigger -- especially in down current situations. Just something to remember.

As with the diver method there is not a set rule to follow. You have to get used to what "looks right" and the easiest way to do this is to make note of the rigger cable's angle when you get a hit. Knowing your GPS SOG is important so you can reset it if you change speeds during fighting the fish but remember you need to be going the same direction and depending on how far you have traveled the down currents may have changed. Checking the angles will confirm that you are still in the ball park.

The other thing I do to try to determine what speed is best is "S" turns. When you make slight turns the rods on the inside of the turn slow down and those on the side of the boat that is on the outside of the turn speed up. If you get a hit on an outside rod it probably means that you are .2 or .3 mph too slow and conversely with a hit on an inside rod try slowing down your straight troll speed by .2 or .3 mph (SOG).

Another thing that I learned a long time ago is to have a set routine on the boat when you get a hit. Have each person assigned a job -- someone notes the depth of the rigger or the line counter setting on the diver or copper/leadcore, someone notes the angle on the rigger wire/divers, someone notes the SOG, someone notes the RPMs on the tach, someone notes the water depth... A log book for this really helps you figure out what works when and how -- add in the lure, method, location, weather, wave and hopefully landed fish info... and review it to learn.

[Play Dough]

Another thing that I learned a long time ago is to have a set routine on the boat when you get a hit. Have each person assigned a job -- someone notes the depth of the rigger or the line counter setting on the diver or copper/leadcore, someone notes the angle on the rigger wire/divers, someone notes the SOG, someone notes the RPMs on the tach, someone notes the water depth... A log book for this really helps you figure out what works when and how -- add in the lure, method, location, weather, wave and hopefully landed fish info... and review it to learn.

Wow, I'm going to have to invite more people on my outings to do all the data collection . In the past, I looked at the bubbles coming off the rigger wires to gage speed. I remember about an inch of bubble off the wire was a good place to start.

[SeaCatMich]

Wow, I'm going to have to invite more people on my outings to do all the data collection . In the past, I looked at the bubbles coming off the rigger wires to gage speed. I remember about an inch of bubble off the wire was a good place to start.

It becomes reflex after you do it a while! The really time consuming part is recording it in a spreadsheet at home -- the computer geek coming out in me. :smile:

[Duraflame]

I also watch the rod tips on lead or copper rigs I have long lined off the side, if I'm not running divers. You can tell if the spoon has good action based on how the rod tip moves.

[mriversinco]

After not having a fishhawk for many years (have one now), here's what I would commonly do. Try to match as close as possible the boat of someone who's catching fish and then separate a little and do slow s turns. If hits come in the inside slow down a hair. If on outside then speed up.

[bowbender]

Ryan, Thanks for the reply and all the great info, this site is a wealth of information, and everyone is so helpful. Lots of grate info just have to tie it all together. I'm going to start keeping a log (I down loaded off this site) to help me keep track of my successes and failures. One other thing I realized I'm doing by reading your reply is I'm probably setting my holders to vertical on my diver rods.

[LongLine]

When is the last time you had one of your cannonballs...or end up a mile behind?

when it was snagged on the bottom.

[LongLine]

so much for the wise-guy answer. Actually very few guys can troll in a perfectly straight line and on a curve/turn one rigger will always speed up faster than the boat is going and the other will go slower. Just like spinning a weight on a string over you head. Your hand barely moves but the weight is really whipping around. Moral is to always zig-zag and then match whatever speed catches a fish. Watching bubbles, bow in cable, sound of clicker, bend in the rod all work but probe speed is the easiest and takes currents out of the equation. The exact numerical value isn't nearly as important as being able to replicate it.