cliftp Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Ok, for all of you Lake Michigan guru's out there.........question of the day. A friend who does a lot of Saginaw Bay and Lake Erie Walleye fishing and I had a discussion yesterday about the Lake Michigan currents. Went something like this....I told him my next big purchase was going to be a Fishhawk, and he asked why. Told him about the crazy currents and while fishing with Rick in his boat who has an old Cannon Speed/Temp, sometimes there is sometimes .4 or .5 tenths difference in speed at the ball. So, my friend brings out this point, If you go on a mile long troll for example, and your speed is 2.5 MPH, isn't your downrigger ball going to be at the same place as when you started, didn't the ball have to go 2.5 MPH too? Talked about river currents and the difference in speed bottom to top, in the Detroit River for example and he said the same thing. Told him about Dan Keatings book, where he talks about the lake currents, same thing, his mind is made up, but does anyone have a logical explanation for a guy who fishes the shallower water.Headed out perching this morning. Life is good.Paul C.
Twill23 Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Here is the best way i would be able to explain it to him. Remind him that speed over ground is different from speed related to moving water. The water which may not be moving at the surface could still be moving below. Look at wind as an example. Think of a anemometer(a too used to measure wind speed). This tool is at all times stationary, but yet will read a speed directly related to the wind. It doesn't move because it is anchored down... Let's fish for birds today. we'll do this with kites. Say those tasty seagulls want the kites going 2.5 mph. The wind today is blowing exactly 2.5 mph! Essentially what you can do to "fish?" effectively for the seagulls is to stand in one spot while your kite does all the work. The kite will act as if it's going 2.5 mph(because that's what your anemometer says its going) But what happens if there is no wind?(Or current) Your kite will sit on the ground not catching any "fish?"Your speed will be reading 0.0 on the anemometer...You must move your body at 2.5mph ground speed to read 2.5 mph on the anemometer. Reading speed over water is much different than reading speed over ground, and it just doesn't work in the same way. Now say again that the wind is blowing 2.5mph. For the bird to get to the kite he has to fly faster then 2.5 mph. Now say he wants to just sit there behind the kite, how fast does the bird have to fly? His speed over ground would be 0, but his speed above ground would have to be 2.5 mph to stay right next to the kite! If it were 0mph than he would be blown away by the wind, and not be able to keep up with the speed of the kite. Moving water vs the ground, is in essence the same as wind vs the ground. Now say you have no way of reading speed at your kite. Your going 2.5mph over ground, but the wind is blowing 2.5 also. Is basic terms your kite will be going 5mph. Why? Because essentially that bird will have to fly 5mph to stay even with that kite. From experience, seagulls just don't like it that fast! Now change that wind to water currents, and those birds to fish and you have a simple explanation! His non moving surface water on the lake is ground in this example, and his moving water below is wind! I would also point out that fish don't live on the ground. They live in the water, which is sometimes moving, and tools used to measure water speed are much different than tools used to measure ground speed. My last point would be this. Tell him to go sit on his couch.. Now ask him if he's moving. If he say's no...Give him a GPS and when he says "See! 0.0mph." tell him he's moving. If he doesn't believe you, ask him how every day the sun sets and rises. This may confuse him more, but in relation to space, it makes perfect sense.(the earth is rotating as well as orbiting around the sun). His speed over ground may be 0, but he is still moving! Only his speed would be measured in speed relating to space rather than speed relating to ground! His gps is again incorrect. I hope this helps!
Twill23 Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 If you REALLY want to explain it, take him to the beach and fly a kite!
KJ pluggin Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name=cliftp;116064 So' date=' my friend brings out this point, If you go on a mile long troll for example, and your speed is 2.5 MPH, isn't your downrigger ball going to be at the same place as when you started, didn't the ball have to go 2.5 MPH too? Paul C.Here is what I would tell him. Take that same mile long troll at and troll up stream in a river at 2.5 mph on you gps. Are you lures going to be moving at 2.5 mph through the water as well... no they will be going faster depending on how fast the river is flowing. Your lures may have traveled the same distance over ground but through the water they had to go farther and faster. Like rivers the water in the great lakes is also moving, maybe not as fast as a river but certainly enough to change how your baits work. I would also show him this site which shows surface currents and explain that when you have a surface current you generally have a opposite current lower in the water column.
Hotdog71 Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Take him fishing with you. No better way than seeing it in person.
cliftp Posted June 28, 2012 Author Posted June 28, 2012 Thank you all. Twill, that was a lot of work, makes perfect sense to me. I'm going to wait until tomorrow and then send him the whole thread.Perching was terrible today out of St. Joe. Wind, wind, and more wind. Finally got the anchor to hold, but no fish where we ended up. Tried to move, the anchor was absolutely buried into something, rocks, boulders, a tree, don't know, tried pulling the opposite direction and everything, (had approx 120 feet out in 30 feet of water). Finally ended up cutting approx 30 feet of rope and the anchor off. Nice digger style anchor if anyone finds it, a little south of the piers.Thanks again for all of your help on the question everyone.Paul C.
Turfwrench Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Hmmm....interesting for sure. But as I see it in a way your buddy is correct. If the boat is traveling 2.5 sog according to the gps then yes your bait is also traveling at 2.5 sog. Now lets put the current into place, sog has no bearing on current speed but indeed does affect the action of the lure as we all know. If heading into the current the bait will indeed be acting as it is being ran at a faster speed and with the current would certainly look to be going too slow. With that being said, I would inform him that the Fish Hawk type devices measure the "action" speed of the lure at the depth you are running and if a particular lure best performs at 2.5 then he would want that lure to look as though it is running at that speed either with or against the current.
Twill23 Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Hmmm....interesting for sure. But as I see it in a way your buddy is correct. If the boat is traveling 2.5 sog according to the gps then yes your bait is also traveling at 2.5 sog. Now lets put the current into place, sog has no bearing on current speed but indeed does affect the action of the lure as we all know. If heading into the current the bait will indeed be acting as it is being ran at a faster speed and with the current would certainly look to be going too slow. With that being said, I would inform him that the Fish Hawk type devices measure the "action" speed of the lure at the depth you are running and if a particular lure best performs at 2.5 then he would want that lure to look as though it is running at that speed either with or against the current. As far as fish are concerned, when current is in place, speed over ground has absolutely no bearing. Essentially what your doing is measuring effort of this fish. What your trying to do is essential imitate bait. We do this by trolling 2.0-3.0mph. Bait is comfortable swimming at this speed. Now throw current into the mix. If a bait is swimming into that current at a comfortable pace, they will be swimming slower than what they normally are, while exerting the same amount of effort.Think of it this way, Your late for the school bus. As it pulls away from you, you begin to chase it luckily the bus is going only 5mph. You easily catch that bus.Now toss in a 40mph wind and chase that same bus. The bus is still going 5mph but because your running in to the wind you just missed the bus. You just couldn't catch the bus and now your late for school!Essential a fish hawk measures speed in relation to energy spent by a fish to chase down and eat.We know they are comfortable hitting bait this is traveling at 2.5mph. If they also have to swim into a moving current, then they are spending more energy to swim 2.5mph to catch that same bait.You have to remember, fish dont understand MPH nor do they understand ground. They live in the water. They want to be comfortable. We as humans measure their effort to chase down bait in terms of speed. Again, they don't know how fast they're going. But they do know how much energy they exert to chase a bait. Even if the current is restricting them, they will still exert the same amount of energy to eat.This is because the bait is also exerting their normal amount of energy to swim. If they're going into the current they will swim slower(in our terms of speed over ground) If they are swimming with the current, they will be going faster.
Mushy's Dad Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Just ask a airplane pilot if he can ignore wind speed and direction (air currents). Land the wrong way in the wind and you will be picking your plane out of a corn field!
CAC Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Great explanation Twill. Here's the crinkle - I have ridden on a well known local charter who does not measure the speed at the ball, yet they have been highly successful for many years. Does it make sense that as long as the bait is speed tolerant, the salmon can swim fast enough to catch it?
mriversinco Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Very nice explanation twill. You wanna come into my physics classroom and guest lecture when we talk about relative motion?The only thing I might add is that when the fish are suspended in a current they won't notice there's a current. Similar to us not noticing the earth is spinning really fast because there's no reference. In reality, an east wind is actually air moving slower than we are.
Twill23 Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I have ridden on a well known local charter who does not measure the speed at the ball, yet they have been highly successful for many years.Does it make sense that as long as the bait is speed tolerant, the salmon can swim fast enough to catch it? There are several gifted fisherman on the lake who have fished long enough before all the special electronics came out that are extremely good at reading their gear. They do this by reading their chute riggers and dispies. Knowing the angle of sway back at the correct speed. They also understand how their divers are supposed to be pulling when things are right..I personally depend on my down speed. Personally, i stopped using a gps speed several years ago. You wanna come into my physics classroom and guest lecture when we talk about relative motion?Sure, Then we can get a few boats together and get the kids on the lake!The only thing I might add is that when the fish are suspended in a current they won't notice there's a current. Similar to us not noticing the earth is spinning really fast because there's no reference. In reality, an east wind is actually air moving slower than we are. As far as fish not knowing their moving is not totally true. Remember fish have a different sensory system than we do. They will feel the vibrations with their lateral line, as well as different in pressure. They will also notice when extra air is rushing through their gills. Remember, if they stop swimming in a current, they drift away(to a certain extent). It's ALMOST like an earth with no gravity, and the chance of wind. Also, their reference points are a little bit different than ours. They use temperature, pressure, vibrations, sight, and even smell as a reference. Also, salmon have almost like a built in compass. They know at all times which direction they're facing.
Twill23 Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Does it make sense that as long as the bait is speed tolerant, the salmon can swim fast enough to catch it? I wanted to add a little bit to this. Salmon want to be comfortable. It's one of the reasons they didn't survive and find a new feeding source in Lake Huron. It's also one of the reasons they will cruise across the entire width of Lake Michigan in one day.They don't like to be uncomfortable. That being said, as we understand it, kings are comfortable with eating our bait, on average, at 2.5mph. I believe this is speed related to effort like mentioned previously. That's how much effort they want to spend to eat something. As far as making a bait go an undetermined speed saying a salmon can catch it may put a few fish in the boat, but may not put the numbers in the boat that most fisherman are looking for. Although it may not be the optimal speed, kings CAN be caught going over 4.0mph.
cliftp Posted June 29, 2012 Author Posted June 29, 2012 Thanks for all the good info. Sending it off to him now!Paul C.
killerbe20 Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Saturday was a perfect example of a day to bring a non-believer out to see the crazy currents. Flat as can be on the lake so no wind/waves to contend with. to keep 1.8 mph on my depth raider, my GPS was running 3.1 knots to the north and 1.6 knots to the south. I can see how it would be difficult to really understand but if you can take him out on a day like that, he could physically see how it makes a difference.
cliftp Posted July 2, 2012 Author Posted July 2, 2012 Saturday was a perfect example of a day to bring a non-believer out to see the crazy currents. Flat as can be on the lake so no wind/waves to contend with. to keep 1.8 mph on my depth raider, my GPS was running 3.1 knots to the north and 1.6 knots to the south. I can see how it would be difficult to really understand but if you can take him out on a day like that, he could physically see how it makes a difference.Thank you Captain Josh. More stuff to send him. The apples and oranges comparison between in the water and on the ground makes so much sense now thanks to all of the replies. If the boat is going 2.5 MPH the ball would be too, if not stuck in the water. (above water, apples; below water, oranges). At least that is how I'm thinking of it now. Thanks everyone.Paul C.Mattawan, MI
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