Big Red Classic 2012

[ekbelt]

FYI...

Our next scheduled meeting is next Wednesday. This thread will be a big topic.

I will report back the outcomes after the meeting. Thanks to everyone who has participated, and continues to participate until next Wednesday.

Erik

[Line Dancin]

I might tick off a couple people but here it goes:

I like Mikes idea of 7 i also like the the idea of NO PREFISHING. I was reading this and my dad brought up that in the old days of tournament you werent allowed to fish from wednesday till the start of the tournament in the big money tournaments. this levels the playing field like the old days. If your caught prefishing your DQed. This makes it fair for the guys that dont have the vacation time to prefish a tournament and get there on friday just in time for the captains meetings. I think they should do this through the whole of the tournament trail. You might see your numbers increase if you did that. I know i would fish more tournaments. The only reason i have been fishing any is because of being on boats that have been prefisihng otherwise i wouldn't throw away my money entering a tournament. By the time i figure the entry fees of at least a couple hundred bucks, fuel for the truck about 150, if it is a ways from home fuel for the van towing the camper, camp grounds fees fuel for the boat. It is about a grand to two grand. So why should i spend a grand to drive up on a friday, spend a grand, to fish a tournament that there is no way in hell i have a chance at because of the guys that have taken the time to prefish and know right where to go and set up on the fish whehn i would have no clue where to start.

The way i see it with starting a new job i dont have the vaca time. The time that i do get i use for a family vacation and i know a lot of guys that do the same. if I was to use all my vaca time to prefish my wife would not allow me to fish nearly as much, if at all or divorced.

Sorry for the rant but this is how i feel about the tournamets now. I like fishing fishing them dont get me wrong.

[CITM]

So the charter captains cant fish for 3 days prior to a tournament? How far from the port? Am I QD'd if i talk to boats that aren't fishing the tournament? Sounds like either more biased or unenforceable rules. I try to prefish 2 days. Somtimes it helps, sometimes not.

[ekbelt]

Ya.... enforcing no prefishing is pretty tough, as a committee do we patrol 24/7 from Wed-Fri?

Just hard to enforce. Not that I dislke the idea, its just I'm not sure it can be enforced in a realistic way. You're at the honor of the participants, and in this day and age you can't trust them. Have to put rules in place that can be managed efficiently. I have a day job too.

[spoonfed]

Bring the trout back in. weigh 10 but no more than 7 kings, then you have to get your others.

[jerryriggin]

Bring the trout back in. weigh 10 but no more than 7 kings, then you have to get your others.

That is probably the best solution yet.

[twohand]

Any news from the meeting?

[wild at heart]

This is not Kevin from WAH. This is his son who fishes tournaments with him. This is a very well run tournament. We have fished this going all the way back to '06. Fishing higher entry fee tournaments demands and brings competition. So my short, simple, honest opinion, is that the 333 part of this tournament has become more of a competition than the actual pro am. Catch 10 weigh 5 diminishes the competition for the guys who fish this tournament every year. My question is..Do u want to risk losing all the fisherman who have made this tournament what it is? I completely understand the sponsors make it what it is too. But for the guys who pay their money year after year to fish this should not have their input taken lightly. The best thing about tournaments is the competition. that is why we enter. I believe that if the current format is kept it will end up being regretted. So lets change it back to the way it was.

[twohand]

This is not Kevin from WAH. This is his son who fishes tournaments with him. This is a very well run tournament. We have fished this going all the way back to '06. Fishing higher entry fee tournaments demands and brings competition. So my short, simple, honest opinion, is that the 333 part of this tournament has become more of a competition than the actual pro am. Catch 10 weigh 5 diminishes the competition for the guys who fish this tournament every year. My question is..Do u want to risk losing all the fisherman who have made this tournament what it is? I completely understand the sponsors make it what it is too. But for the guys who pay their money year after year to fish this should not have their input taken lightly. The best thing about tournaments is the competition. that is why we enter. I believe that if the current format is kept it will end up being regretted. So lets change it back to the way it was.

Well said.

[Flyboy]

I don't fish tournaments for a few reasons(cost, time, experience compared to others) so I know my opinion doesn't hold much weight, but after reading all these I figured I'd throw in my two cents as well.

First of all I would love to fish tournaments. I always enjoy going to the various ports after the boats have come in to see the catches and watch the ceremonies. The atmosphere is simply addictive. But do to my inability to get the time off for the prefishing as many of you have already touched on renders it useless for me to participate. The cost (like one said, one to two grand for some) to participate would be to much, especially knowing that I'd be competing against those who have the ability to fish 4+ days a week. They know the port, the know how to fish it and what to fish it with, but thats what separates the good fisherman from the best.

With that said, I think its only fair to be able to boat 10 or 15 fish and weigh 10. I enjoy fishing the same days as the tournaments and then seeing how well I would have done had I entered, and as far as numbers would go, I rarely caught the 10-15 fish limit, but as far as big the big fish were concerned I would have done quite well. I don't get to fish other ports that much, but fish them on these days just for the fun and environment. But I don't think its right if I were to join the tournament, catch my 7-8 fish average and weigh the best fish and then possibly beat out the more experienced fisherman who put in so much more time to find the fish during the week and then box out with slightly smaller fish. The tournaments that incorporate extra points for 3-4 trout are even better because this incorporates even more skill than just boxing out on kings(still hard to do). It is simply much more competitive to have a catch 10 or 15 and then weigh at least 10, at least for the pro division. Maybe that catch 10 weigh 5 for the amateurs would be better suited. But being friends with numerous charter captains, theres something to be said about being able to consistantly put limit catches on the boat, even more so if you can consistantly catch your 3-4 trout. To just allow 5 fish to be weighed decreases the level of competition and quite honestly the skill needed to catch fish by alot(At least for the pro division).

Anyways, just my thoughts.

[Ace HI]

I have fished with 1Mainiac for the last 7 years and since the BC2 crap he only fish's the Muskegon Shootout which he is skipping this year due to them going to a weigh 5 in the AM which we fish. I can understand in a league style event keeping the fish count down to improve competition like the MSCST or the WMFL that way no one gets knocked out completely for a bad day. But those are just have fun and fish events and way cheaper to enter. The big Pro Ams are supposed to be tough to win and if fishing is tough you need to bear down and get it down or tip your hat to the guys who could. What is going to happen is more guys like Jim will just do the 333 only events and take a shot at getting his 3 best fish in for the money.

[ekbelt]

Thank you for all the input and comments on the future format for the Big Red Classic.

Even with a slight majority voting for catch 15 weigh 5, there was concern that the population for this survey might not completely represent the actual Big Red Classic participants.

For 2012, the format will remain catch 10 weigh 5 for both (formats) divisions. A detailed survey will be included in the captains bags this year in order to get accurate information to what the Big Red Classic participants would like to see for the future of the event.

The Big Red Classic is a 501©3 organization who's goal is to give back to the community and help the DNR with projects they work on in Holland, MI. We actively support two charities: Breast Cancer Awareness and the Holland Boy's and Girl's Club. We also were a key component in the completion of the Holland Fish Cleaning station. The charities and community projects are part of the bigger picture of the Big Red Classic.

The Big Red Classic is committed to it's participants and we're open to new ideas, but would like to get an accurate perspective from the people who support us.

Thanks, and hope to see you in August!

[wild at heart]

Sounds like a good idea Eric, if they will really listen. Last year everyone I talked to and overheard was against it at the captians meeting, but then the fishing went south and everyone was struggling just to get 5 and the complaining quited down quite a bit. If the fishing had stayed good I'm sure there would of been a lot more. I agree with the committee's wanting to bring in new partistapants, I just think this is not the way. Most of these big TT 2 day events are fished by serious fisherman who are there to compete, know matter what level they are at. Theres plenty of 1 day low key events for beginners to work there way up to wanting to get into these. I love the BRC, I think its the best run of all the tourneys we fish. I just wish that the event had not been "dumbed down" competition wise.

[Fly Catcher]

Well it's good to hear that they will be handing out a survey in the captains bags this year. My only question is, what about the boats that don't fish it this year do to the rules. Their opinion and concerns are still not being heard and they are the ones that will keep this tournament alive. I struggle with supporting a tournament where some of the the committee members have their own agendas and are unwilling to listen to the masses. The only reason I may end up fishing the tournament is do to it being our home marina and port, the rest of my team decides they want to fish it, and the fact that one committee member has tried really hard to get things changed but was not been listened to and he asked that we give it one more year before we stop fishing it.

I can say my vote for my team is that if the fishing is still really good come Aug we save our money and only fish the 333. If the fishing is really tough then we will fish it.

[DIRTY DOG]

Well it's good to hear that they will be handing out a survey in the captains bags this year. My only question is, what about the boats that don't fish it this year do to the rules. Their opinion and concerns are still not being heard and they are the ones that will keep this tournament alive. I struggle with supporting a tournament where some of the the committee members have their own agendas and are unwilling to listen to the masses. The only reason I may end up fishing the tournament is do to it being our home marina and port, the rest of my team decides they want to fish it, and the fact that one committee member has tried really hard to get things changed but was not been listened to and he asked that we give it one more year before we stop fishing it.

I can say my vote for my team is that if the fishing is still really good come Aug we save our money and only fish the 333. If the fishing is really tough then we will fish it.

I have heard this exact same thing, that they would rather fish the 333 than the main tournement.

[1mainiac]

As for me I would rather lose trying to catch a full box than win by getting 5 nice fish. More than once it has come down to the guys who can get all their fish. With a weigh 5 format it only comes down to finding the right group of fish since to me they tend to travel in small pods of 5 or so fish. and nearly every time we get a double both fish are close to the same size. However since I won't be there the rules really don't matter all that much to me. Really if I never fish another major tourney again I won't care.

[Twill23]

I agree with most of the post.

I do think that the separate divisions should be treated differently. If you truly trying to get everyone in involved, AND trying to get as many participants, Then the two divisions should be different. IE; Am: Catch whatever weigh 5. While pro:Catch 15 weigh 12. Your getting at both target audiences, and those who really want the competition will get it by having your best fisherman fishing for the toughest boxes, while still having the amateur division weighing in a much easier box to come by which is more appealing to the weekend warrior.

Just what i think.

[spoonfed]

Sorry TJ, I dont agree with that. How many tourneys have you been too that the AMs weight for 10 fish is more than the pros? I know ive seen it many times. If your looking to have an easy division, then make a powder puff division. Half price weigh half the fish!

[1mainiac]

Eric that is something I have argued for many times I like the idea of a Pro, Semi Pro and AM class kinda like the small boat division only limit it guys who want to fun fish. Maybe guys with deeper pockets can call entering a contest that will cost you close to a grand a fun fish event and yes we do have fun even when we lose but if your gonna dumb it down I will stick with the league tourneys we can fish all of them for less than one big event. Plus it is hard to convince a team to spend half of their summer fishing budget on one weekend that is not in AK.

[spoonfed]

Jim thats where i am going with that, that would be a good structure. didnt mean to offend anyone with the powder puff class. We are all good fisherman, but like you said it cost alot of money to play. We ran from Frankfort to Manistee for the tourney last year. Fuel wasnt cheap but we were on good fish. to make the day worse we dropped a cylinder on the way back. Run 3 divisions if worried about participants. But id bet if you look at the people who enter theres alot of names that are there every year. Ive fished Frankfort for 8 yrs now. just dont agree with the catch 10 weigh 5. Still liked it when you had to get your trout. Then your thinking!

[Nailer]

IMHO, it is just a competition at who is best at catching big fish. Can the average Joe go out and get 5 big fish and win? Not as likely as some one that has his program dialed in, and knows how to target big fish.

I really don't understan why one would fish the 333, and not the tournament, when the tournament is just a bigger version of the 333.

[Twill23]

IMHO, it is just a competition at who is best at catching big fish. Can the average Joe go out and get 5 big fish and win? Not as likely as some one that has his program dialed in, and knows how to target big fish.

I really don't understan why one would fish the 333, and not the tournament, when the tournament is just a bigger version of the 333.

Totally agree on the first part. I also think a lot of it has to do with egos. Not to bash people, but what's the first question you get asked when you hit the dock?

"How many you get?"

[Twill23]

If your looking to have an easy division, then make a powder puff division. Half price weigh half the fish!

My opinion was based on trying to make as many people happy, with as many entrances as possible. Not a "powder puff" division.

The biggest issue for the Big Red committee SEEMS(i dont know for a fact because i am personally not on the board) to be trying to make guys who feel they're "legitimate" fisherman AND the "average joe" fisherman enter the same tournament but still feel as though they're fishing a level playing field.

We won't personally be fishing the main event unless fishing is extremely tough, or unless i find a crew who wants to go out and fish for fun and drink beers.

It does cost a TON of money to fish a big time tournament, and I know, that to most of my crew and I, it's not about the purse at the end of the day, it's the name at the top of the board that we're after. When we're beat we congratulate the guys who beat us. Just look at the Grand Haven tournament. EXTREMELY tough fishing and for those that put their fish in the boat and finished in the top truly deserved it.(Flycatcher ) It would have been a COMPLETELY different story had it been a weigh 5 tournament.

I just think that on a weigh 5 tournament, when fishing is GOOD, you may not see the top fisherman at the top of the board. I still have this opinion after having won a weigh 5 tournament this year.

[1mainiac]

When Don and I started the MSCST we had similar but slightly different ideas so our first year was kinda rough. We sat down and made some changes and decided to concentrate on keeping it fun. My original goal was to be a summer long boot camp to let guys fish big event rules when we started. We also had some miscomunacation between us which we had to sort out. So our second year came with a number of changes keyed on keeping it fun and leveling the playing field. As such we kept the 3 man DNR team rules for fishing and went to a 6 fish weigh in with a sliding points scale for fish. This had led to guys learnig to find the right fish to win and it is tough to just get 6 kings and win because Steelhead and Browns are more points per fish. Most years you have fish completely differant water for each fish, this year well you can get nearly anything in the same pass like the 15lb Brown caught on a 3 color in deep water last week. The big differance is we are a 30 dollar entry event and we run all summer long with a prize for season points total so in the end you still get to see who the better fishermen are because you have to do well at all the events to win the points championship.

[Just Hook'n]

I am on the exact same page as Brian - we'll fish the 333 only more than likely.

We might even do it in one day just to save gas the second day if we can get into a few big fish in day one.

Sounds to me like this might be the last year that the "big" sponsors participate if things don't change.

Too bad, as stated by others, this is the best run tournament in the area as far as electronic score posting, food, accomodations, organization, cause they are supporting, etc.

In fact, I'll probably just do what I did last year and drop money in the pot for the cause, but abstain from the competition.