Provide your input on Lk Mich Stocking Strategies

[EdB]

Today's Seagrant meeting in Benton Harbor was very information on the future of our Lake Michigan fishery. I participated through the online webinar. If you could not attend, a video of today's meeting should be up on the Seagrant site soon. There is a also a survey monkey survey everyone can complete online to provide your feedback on future stocking strategies to protect our fishery. Please take some time to get educated before completing the survey by watching the videos or reading the reports on the Seagrant website. It might be a few days before today's video is up on the site.

Here is a link to the info, video's, reports and the online survey.

http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/fisheries/stocking/index.html

[Jay Wesley]

If anyone is interested in seeing a recording of the meeting, the Adobe Connect version is available on the Michigan Sea Grant web site. You can view the presentations, see and hear the presenters, and hear the questions that were asked.

[Jay Wesley]

We are taking public comment until May 15th, so if you have not already commented, please at least take the survey on the Michigan Sea Grant Site.

I think that we have only had 350 or so comments so far. THanks. Jay

[WALRANGER5]

Please research alewives before you vote to increase them, by whatever means. Alewives are an invasive species, dependant on our natural/native fishery (predators) be kept low for them to survive. Alewives are also predators of zooplankton and native larval fish.

You cannot solve an invasive species problem, by increasing an invasive species.

[jimcr]

Please research alewives before you vote to increase them, by whatever means. Alewives are an invasive species, dependant on our natural/native fishery (predators) be kept low for them to survive. Alewives are also predators of zooplankton and native larval fish.

You cannot solve an invasive species problem, by increasing an invasive species.

Here is one thing to remember , and that is Chinook Salmon prefer Alewives , but will eat other food, Yes the Salmon were put here to control the Alewives but with out the alewives we would not have a Chinook fishery. Read the info available at Seagrant .

The biggest problem is that the clear water caused buy first the Zebra muscles then quagula muscles , the clear water is missing the part of the food web.

If you could get rid of the quagga muscles you wouldn't' have this problem .

[WALRANGER5]

Here is one thing to remember , and that is Chinook Salmon prefer Alewives , but will eat other food, Yes the Salmon were put here to control the Alewives but with out the alewives we would not have a Chinook fishery. Read the info available at Seagrant .

The biggest problem is that the clear water caused buy first the Zebra muscles then quagula muscles , the clear water is missing the part of the food web.

If you could get rid of the quagga muscles you wouldn't' have this problem .

The fact is chinook need a minimum of 123 pounds of Alewives PER fish to hit 17 pounds in 3 years, no other fish only salmon. Alewives are an invasive species, that are detrimental to the natural/native environment ecosystem, no matter how you slice it. 123 times x number of salmon times 3/4 year classes, add for size and allow for "extra" salmon from Huron and spawning = A very damaged natural/native fishery. We have to sacrifice, the entire natural ecosystem for one fish, that requires a special diet to survive. Do some people make money off salmon? Yep! Some people are making money off Asian carp, money don't make it a good thing, except for "some" people. The 123 pound rule will never change If we keep the Chinook. We have native predators for zebra/quagga mussels and gobies etc.... but they also eat alewives, so perhaps you can see the conflict of interest, or the major flaw in the alewife/salmon plan?

[WALRANGER5]

Guys I'm as tired of talking about invasive species as some of you are hearing it. All we want to do is restore the Perch and Walleye in West Michigan, Lake Michigan. I would much rather spend my time Coordinating those efforts than pointing out the flaws in the system, that wont let us do that. We have yet to ask for money, we only require a permit, the DNR has excuses and no logical reasons to stop us. We want to be proactive with the Asian Carp, and I assure you they are very real, we have native predators for them, the Feds admit this, and can be controlled with predators, none happen to be salmon or trout, and there's nothing anyone can do about that.

Get some buddys together take a boat, any boat, go down to Bath Illinois and go for a boat ride, just go for a ride! Then perhaps you'll see, the Asian Carp have already shown us what's going to happen here, if we continue with the "Lack of predators" program to protect the alewives, that protects them all. We have to face the facts, reality.

These chat rooms are supposed to be people who care about our fishing resource, forgive me if that's not the case.

Sincerely, Tom

[OldCool]

Guys I'm as tired of talking about invasive species as some of you are hearing it. All we want to do is restore the Perch and Walleye in West Michigan, Lake Michigan. I would much rather spend my time Coordinating those efforts than pointing out the flaws in the system, that wont let us do that. We have yet to ask for money, we only require a permit, the DNR has excuses and no logical reasons to stop us. We want to be proactive with the Asian Carp, and I assure you they are very real, we have native predators for them, the Feds admit this, and can be controlled with predators, none happen to be salmon or trout, and there's nothing anyone can do about that.

Get some buddys together take a boat, any boat, go down to Bath Illinois and go for a boat ride, just go for a ride! Then perhaps you'll see, the Asian Carp have already shown us what's going to happen here, if we continue with the "Lack of predators" program to protect the alewives, that protects them all. We have to face the facts, reality.

These chat rooms are supposed to be people who care about our fishing resource, forgive me if that's not the case.

Sincerely, Tom

Tom,

Can you perhaps clarify for me your position on this issue? I'm trying to make sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Is it your belief that if the alewives collapse taking with it the salmon population, with then the perch and walleye become the dominant predators that this would help reduce/eliminate the zebra/quagga mussel and Asian carp problem?

Respectfully,

- Senez

[WALRANGER5]

Tom,

Can you perhaps clarify for me your position on this issue? I'm trying to make sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Is it your belief that if the alewives collapse taking with it the salmon population, with then the perch and walleye become the dominant predators that this would help reduce/eliminate the zebra/quagga mussel and Asian carp problem?

Respectfully,

- Senez

Yes Sir, the natural "biotic-resistance" of a body of water is dependant on having abundant/sufficient numbers of predators. They netted off areas and the "predators" wiped out the zebra mussels in a short time. Perch feed heavily on zebra mussels, thus abundant/sufficient numbers.....

Perch and Walleye eat shad, baby Asian Carp look dead nuts like baby shad, they will not ask if they're from China, they'll just eat them. Salmon cannot survive in the warmwater spawning/nursery areas, Native fish/predators can.

I would point out that the DNR says "once you get an invasive species, you can never get rid of it" yet they just told the whole world, too many predators (salmon) will wipe out the alewives!

Having our so called top predator out in the middle of lake Michigan, and only eating one fish, both non native, isn't helping control any other invasive species, because they can't. They have to "balance" all the predators to protect the alewives, this includes native fish.

A simple switch to steelhead and Browns, not dependant on alewives, keeps the big lake fishery, yet can co-exist with a healthy native fish population, salmon cannot.

We can't control where the asian Carp go, but we can control how many predators they run into, make the lakes useless to them, (biotic-resistance) but any biotic-resistance would affect the alewife/salmon plan, soooooo....

the lake and connecting waters have to be invasive species safe. The proofs in the lake. I'm tired of fishing for leftovers, and I want my grand kids and thier kids etc... to be able to go fishing and not wind up with a carp pond. Google (biotic-resistance native predators) not my idea, fish science, I just agree, but all useless if alewives continue to come first, last, and always!

[GLF]

This thread was started for anglers to share their imput for salmon stocking stratagies. It was not started to talk about asian carp. Please keep it on track.

[jimcr]

Yes Sir, the natural "biotic-resistance" of a body of water is dependant on having abundant/sufficient numbers of predators. They netted off areas and the "predators" wiped out the zebra mussels in a short time. Perch feed heavily on zebra mussels, thus abundant/sufficient numbers.....

Perch and Walleye eat shad, baby Asian Carp look dead nuts like baby shad, they will not ask if they're from China, they'll just eat them. Salmon cannot survive in the warmwater spawning/nursery areas, Native fish/predators can.

I would point out that the DNR says "once you get an invasive species, you can never get rid of it" yet they just told the whole world, too many predators (salmon) will wipe out the alewives!

Having our so called top predator out in the middle of lake Michigan, and only eating one fish, both non native, isn't helping control any other invasive species, because they can't. They have to "balance" all the predators to protect the alewives, this includes native fish.

A simple switch to steelhead and Browns, not dependant on alewives, keeps the big lake fishery, yet can co-exist with a healthy native fish population, salmon cannot.

We can't control where the asian Carp go, but we can control how many predators they run into, make the lakes useless to them, (biotic-resistance) but any biotic-resistance would affect the alewife/salmon plan, soooooo....

the lake and connecting waters have to be invasive species safe. The proofs in the lake. I'm tired of fishing for leftovers, and I want my grand kids and thier kids etc... to be able to go fishing and not wind up with a carp pond. Google (biotic-resistance native predators) not my idea, fish science, I just agree, but all useless if alewives continue to come first, last, and always!

You are leaving a few important parts out on the food web , the diphtheria, certain types of plankton , and others that the lake needs to host native and non native species . Its not that the alewives are going away , its that all the forage is. The food for the prey is missing, the quagula muscles and zebra muscles are filtering out all the important organisms needed by alewives, perch , smelt etc.

There are all type of factors that come into play hear, Ice conditions , weather, water temps, Cloudy a very long list . You have to look at the bigger picture. even if you took out Chinook Salmon from the picture and the Alewives there is still a problem. quagula muscles are very efficient at filtering out everything from the water. and proficient at it. Why do you think that the lake is so clear?

Years ago there was a great fishery out on the lake , people used to use large seine nets for Smelt. Perch was commercially fished out on the lake . There is a ballance to eveything out there and it keeps changing. Are Brown Trout Native? Steelhead? Splake?Coho?

All I can say is don't let Lake Michigan Crash like Lake Huron. Your talking about a 8 to 10 Billion dollar fishery, That would leave a giant hole in the economy that Wisconsin , Michigan, Illinois, or Indiana share. If they stopped stocking Chinook we as a group would find other fish to chase , but think of the Jobs the would be lost not just the charter captains, the Bait store down the street, how about the marinas the list goes on.There are four options for reduced stocking IF NEEDED! will be implemented. Please make an informed decision . Make sure you contact your DNR and make your voice heard, they will make the decisions we don't .

[WALRANGER5]

You are leaving a few important parts out on the food web , the diphtheria, certain types of plankton , and others that the lake needs to host native and non native species . Its not that the alewives are going away , its that all the forage is. The food for the prey is missing, the quagula muscles and zebra muscles are filtering out all the important organisms needed by alewives, perch , smelt etc.

There are all type of factors that come into play hear, Ice conditions , weather, water temps, Cloudy a very long list . You have to look at the bigger picture. even if you took out Chinook Salmon from the picture and the Alewives there is still a problem. quagula muscles are very efficient at filtering out everything from the water. and proficient at it. Why do you think that the lake is so clear?

Years ago there was a great fishery out on the lake , people used to use large seine nets for Smelt. Perch was commercially fished out on the lake . There is a ballance to eveything out there and it keeps changing. Are Brown Trout Native? Steelhead? Splake?Coho?

All I can say is don't let Lake Michigan Crash like Lake Huron. Your talking about a 8 to 10 Billion dollar fishery, That would leave a giant hole in the economy that Wisconsin , Michigan, Illinois, or Indiana share. If they stopped stocking Chinook we as a group would find other fish to chase , but think of the Jobs the would be lost not just the charter captains, the Bait store down the street, how about the marinas the list goes on.There are four options for reduced stocking IF NEEDED! will be implemented. Please make an informed decision . Make sure you contact your DNR and make your voice heard, they will make the decisions we don't .

With respect, the salmon are not worth any billion, let alone 8 to 10. I stand behind what I said. Have a nice day.

[WALRANGER5]

This thread was started for anglers to share their imput for salmon stocking stratagies. It was not started to talk about asian carp. Please keep it on track.

As you wish. However this is my imput on stocking stratagies. Filling Lake Michigan back up with alewives, by any means, stocking cuts, planting (some are calling for planting alewives) is not in the publics and the lakes best interest, and will be a major factor in whether or not the Asian Carp can thrive in our lakes. Sacrificing an entire Great Lake and connecting waters for one non-native fish, is not what I'd call a good idea.

[WALRANGER5]

Anybody know how many people took the stocking cuts survey?

[WALRANGER5]

Nobody knows how many people took the salmon survey?

[Cork Dust]

As you wish. However this is my imput on stocking stratagies. Filling Lake Michigan back up with alewives, by any means, stocking cuts, planting (some are calling for planting alewives) is not in the publics and the lakes best interest, and will be a major factor in whether or not the Asian Carp can thrive in our lakes. Sacrificing an entire Great Lake and connecting waters for one non-native fish, is not what I'd call a good idea.

Loss of energy transfer from deep water back upward into the fish community(alewife,yellow perch, lake whitefish,burbot,lake herring, etc.) from the displacement of Diporeia sp. by Dreissend mussels (primarily Quagga sp., but secondarily Zebra mussels inshore), as well as related spawning success and growth declines in the forage fish community are what is driving the majority of problem in Lake Michigan. Steelhead AND brown trout do feed on alewife as well, but not to the level or degree that chinook and coho do, plus they cost a lot more to produce via the hatchery system. Estimates of immigrant Chinook from Lake Huron, as well as wild origin fish from Lake Michigan tributaries peg the Chinook annual input figure (stocked fish plus wild fish) at over 8 million fish per year, a value that exceeds the largest lakewide Chinook plant figure from 1987. Contrast this figure against a forage base that is a third of values recorded in the pre-BKD era on Lake Michigan.

One other point to keep in mind, you are actually not recommended to consume the "native" salmonid (lake trout) at legal sizes in Lake Michigan(see fish consumption advisory). From where I sit, this represents nearly forty years of failed effort and wasted dollars to rehabilitate lake trout stocks. largely via Federal bullying of State level fish and game agencies. But then, again, the strain being planted is not native to the Great Lakes, so it is a bit of a stretch to call them a native to begin with.

When biologists refer to this as a "top down" (too much foraging pressure on the remaining forage fish base and a "bottom up" (too little nutrient/energy transfer at the lower end of the food web back into the forage fish community, this is what they are referring to.

Alewife are a major consumer of larval fish of several species (lake trout, yellow perch, burbot, lake herring, bloater, emerald shiners, etc.). Abundant alewife stocks would likely serve as an initial "check" on Asian Carp expansion, until their numbers reached values where exponential growth of the populaiton would begin to occur.

[Jay Wesley]

Nobody knows how many people took the salmon survey?

There was 655 that took the survey.

[WALRANGER5]

There was 655 that took the survey.

Thank you.

[WALRANGER5]

Loss of energy transfer from deep water back upward into the fish community(alewife,yellow perch, lake whitefish,burbot,lake herring, etc.) from the displacement of Diporeia sp. by Dreissend mussels (primarily Quagga sp., but secondarily Zebra mussels inshore), as well as related spawning success and growth declines in the forage fish community are what is driving the majority of problem in Lake Michigan. Steelhead AND brown trout do feed on alewife as well, but not to the level or degree that chinook and coho do, plus they cost a lot more to produce via the hatchery system. Estimates of immigrant Chinook from Lake Huron, as well as wild origin fish from Lake Michigan tributaries peg the Chinook annual input figure (stocked fish plus wild fish) at over 8 million fish per year, a value that exceeds the largest lakewide Chinook plant figure from 1987. Contrast this figure against a forage base that is a third of values recorded in the pre-BKD era on Lake Michigan.

One other point to keep in mind, you are actually not recommended to consume the "native" salmonid (lake trout) at legal sizes in Lake Michigan(see fish consumption advisory). From where I sit, this represents nearly forty years of failed effort and wasted dollars to rehabilitate lake trout stocks. largely via Federal bullying of State level fish and game agencies. But then, again, the strain being planted is not native to the Great Lakes, so it is a bit of a stretch to call them a native to begin with.

When biologists refer to this as a "top down" (too much foraging pressure on the remaining forage fish base and a "bottom up" (too little nutrient/energy transfer at the lower end of the food web back into the forage fish community, this is what they are referring to.

Alewife are a major consumer of larval fish of several species (lake trout, yellow perch, burbot, lake herring, bloater, emerald shiners, etc.). Abundant alewife stocks would likely serve as an initial "check" on Asian Carp expansion, until their numbers reached values where exponential growth of the populaiton would begin to occur.

Thank you for pointing out alewife are major consumers of larval fish. Will alewives eat larval Asian carp? Sure if the carp spawn in june when the alewives come into spawn, the other 2 or 3 times they spawn the alewives will be out in the lake, salmon can't survive in the warm spawning areas, so Asian Carp have the advantage, as do the other freshwater invasive species, now spreading across the state and beyond. Growing too big for predators, protects thier females, and they have 20+ years to wait for "the right conditions" attacking or making the near shore spawning areas useless to them (lots of predators, no room at the inn), is our best bet at controlling them. This has been proven many times with common carp. Lack of predators allowed alewives etc.... There is no such thing as a safe level of alewives or any other invasive species. I was asked not to talk about Asian carp, but you asked. If the Asian carp get control of the spawning/nursery areas, it wont matter how many salmon you cut or stock!

[Cork Dust]

Yes Sir, the natural "biotic-resistance" of a body of water is dependant on having abundant/sufficient numbers of predators. They netted off areas and the "predators" wiped out the zebra mussels in a short time. Perch feed heavily on zebra mussels, thus abundant/sufficient numbers.....

Perch and Walleye eat shad, baby Asian Carp look dead nuts like baby shad, they will not ask if they're from China, they'll just eat them. Salmon cannot survive in the warmwater spawning/nursery areas, Native fish/predators can.

I would point out that the DNR says "once you get an invasive species, you can never get rid of it" yet they just told the whole world, too many predators (salmon) will wipe out the alewives!

Having our so called top predator out in the middle of lake Michigan, and only eating one fish, both non native, isn't helping control any other invasive species, because they can't. They have to "balance" all the predators to protect the alewives, this includes native fish.

A simple switch to steelhead and Browns, not dependant on alewives, keeps the big lake fishery, yet can co-exist with a healthy native fish population, salmon cannot.

We can't control where the asian Carp go, but we can control how many predators they run into, make the lakes useless to them, (biotic-resistance) but any biotic-resistance would affect the alewife/salmon plan, soooooo....

the lake and connecting waters have to be invasive species safe. The proofs in the lake. I'm tired of fishing for leftovers, and I want my grand kids and thier kids etc... to be able to go fishing and not wind up with a carp pond. Google (biotic-resistance native predators) not my idea, fish science, I just agree, but all useless if alewives continue to come first, last, and always!

Where did you ever get the notion that brown trout and steelhead do not feed on alewife? As a fish biologist, I am amazed at much of what you offer as "fact", since not much of it is.

There are currently 184 invasive organisms identfied in Lake Michigan. How do you conclude that eliminating alewife as the chief forage organism is going to restore the native species array? Salmon, by virtue of their establishment of a a self-sustaining stock, have quite litterally earned their place in the current ecosystem. Let's compare the current reproductive success rates of chinook salmon to the USFWS/USGS proposed keystone predator, the lake trout (part of the native species array you advocate we resotore). Who is most successful in the current species array environment?

Quagga and zebra mussels will likely damp yellow perch and walleye stock expansion, even in the absence of alewife and salmon. About the only species you can reliably predict to expand in the absence of alewife and salmon in Lake Michigan would be emerald shiners.

[Jay Wesley]

Here is how the port by port reductions will take place this spring:

http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2012/12/making_the_cut_state_officials.html

[southtrollsouth]

Jay....what are all of the other indicators ranked in order of importance that would be used to effect stocking decisions in the future?

[fishsniffer]

looks like ill be fishing north more:grin:

[southtrollsouth]

looks like ill be fishing north more:grin:

Why would you do that? Fishing is about as easy as it gets out of Muskegon.

[Jay Wesley]

Jay....what are all of the other indicators ranked in order of importance that would be used to effect stocking decisions in the future?

Research biologist from around the pond developed a list of indicators that we have been looking at for many years. Here are some of them that I can think of:

Chinook weight for age 2 and 3

Chinook condition

% water in flesh

weir returns (Little Manistee and Strawberry creek)

Catch per Effort

Coho weight

Forage biomass both trawl data and hydroaccustics

Alewife year class strength

% natural reproduction

Incidence of disease (i.e. bkd)

Composition of catch (how many chinook compared to lake trout, brown, steelhead coho, etc)

Not sure if I got them all. There are about 15 in total that are looked at.

Fish weight is important because it means that the fish are finding food or not. You can argue all you want about our forage data or how much forage is out there. If the fish are good size, you know that there is good forage. I also like to look at catch rates. When catch rates are high, it typically means that fish are more hungry (not always though). Alewife year class strength and how good year classes survive through the years is also important.