Salmon stocking could be cut in Lake Michigan

[News]

Managers of Lake Michigan want to cut the number of Chinook salmon being put into the lake by as much as 50 percent next year.

More...

[danthebuilder]

Nothing to see here. Just trying to make conditions perfect for the Asian carp population to explode.

[Twill23]

Nothing to see here. Just trying to make conditions perfect for the Asian carp population to explode.

Not correct at all. I really wish they would have down this on our side of the state before something catastrophic happened. Unfortunately i beleive not everyone really clearly understand what happened to Lake Huron, and how it has destroyed more than just fishing.

It's destroyed towns, communities, businesses, and people's way of life.

Being that the west side of michigan is the much more populated side of the state, i believe taking these steps to conserve and protect the fishery is what has to be done! If what happened in Lake Huron, happens in Lake Michigan, it could totally cripple the entire state of michigan

[WALRANGER5]

Increasing an invasive species makes no sense, given the facts. Dan is right right if it's safe for Alewives it's extremely safe for Asian Carp. (lack of predators) which we have.

[hear fishy fishy]

I agree 100% with TJ, everything he said I have seen as well and know many others who would agree. I have spent most of my time fishing out of Rockport and continue to fish there every year. The fishing changed big time over the past 10 years and I would hate to see this happen to Lake Michigan. I think its a great idea to cut the Salmon plant. If we wipe out all the bait fish and then the Salmon have nothing to eat, they will not adjust well to eating other things, resulting in starvation. Other fish like trout and walleye will adjust but not salmon. However I am not sure if Salmon will eat Asian carp or not, but I hope so if they get in the lake. If someone can find documented information of Salmon eating carp please let me know. Thank you

[GLF]

Salmon are open water fish. If I had to guess, the juvenile asian carp would not be found in the same waters as salmon.

[Twill23]

Salmon are open water fish. If I had to guess, the juvenile asian carp would not be found in the same waters as salmon.

Mike,

That isn't the issue. The issue is what the carp would do to our forage base. These asian carp feed on plankton. They feed at an astronomical rate compared to our common carp that are already plentiful in our lakes.

We already are fighting a battle with quagga and zebra muscles, which essentially do the same thing. The quagga muscles is what destroyed Lake Huron. They filtered the lake so efficiently that they totally wiped out the forage base to our alewives.

Adding another filter feeder to Lake Michigan could totally wipe out the forage base of alewives, essentially wiping out our salmon. Another issue with the "asian carp" is their reproductive cycle. These fish will spawn up to 3 times per year!!!

The main goal of cutting the salmon plants is to increase the number of alewives. With the phenomenal natural reproduction they're seeing for kings, they could become over populated. ((Which is one cause of Huron's crash)The number of natural reproducing kings were severely underestimated causing an unexpected amount of adult salmon in years leading to the crash)

Lake Michigan has been lucky enough to avoid the catastrophic crash by the way of quaggq muscles because of the lack of rock structure throughout the lake as compared to Lake Huron.

The issue with our alewives right now is not sheer numbers. But the numbers of adult alewives. Alewives have a 7year life cycle, but are not considered adult(reproducing) until the age of 4. Once these fish grow to the size they are, around the 4 year mark, they are the PERFECT target for our kings. Having an over abundance of kings can severely impact the number of reproducing alewives by over feeding, which will in-turn cause low spawning numbers. It turns into a vicious cycle.

Unfortunately, carp and alewives are completely different issues, but could essentially be detrimental to our fishery. Both of these issues have to be looked at, but on a separate basis.

Prevention of the carp entering the great lakes is by far the most important step.

The next step is sustaining a forage base for our kings. If there aren't alewives there aren't salmon. It's as simple as that.

[WALRANGER5]

I agree 100% with TJ, everything he said I have seen as well and know many others who would agree. I have spent most of my time fishing out of Rockport and continue to fish there every year. The fishing changed big time over the past 10 years and I would hate to see this happen to Lake Michigan. I think its a great idea to cut the Salmon plant. If we wipe out all the bait fish and then the Salmon have nothing to eat, they will not adjust well to eating other things, resulting in starvation. Other fish like trout and walleye will adjust but not salmon. However I am not sure if Salmon will eat Asian carp or not, but I hope so if they get in the lake. If someone can find documented information of Salmon eating carp please let me know. Thank you

Salmon are a coldwater fish, can't even survive in the backwater areas, where juvenile Asian carp will be. Most likely adults will move into Lake Michigan (as thier numbers increase) they will be too big, but they will control the plankton there, from micro size to larval fish. Alewives also eat zooplankton and larval fish, but this fact is largely ignored.

[WALRANGER5]

Salmon are open water fish. If I had to guess, the juvenile asian carp would not be found in the same waters as salmon.

Yep, control of the spawning/nursery areas makes or breaks it. Asian carp (according to the experts) is the most efficient freshwater filter feeding fish in the world, they will be that here. Without or low predators, it will look here, what you see down south. A saltwater predator not much good against them.

[WALRANGER5]

Mike,

That isn't the issue. The issue is what the carp would do to our forage base. These asian carp feed on plankton. They feed at an astronomical rate compared to our common carp that are already plentiful in our lakes.

We already are fighting a battle with quagga and zebra muscles, which essentially do the same thing. The quagga muscles is what destroyed Lake Huron. They filtered the lake so efficiently that they totally wiped out the forage base to our alewives.

Adding another filter feeder to Lake Michigan could totally wipe out the forage base of alewives, essentially wiping out our salmon. Another issue with the "asian carp" is their reproductive cycle. These fish will spawn up to 3 times per year!!!

The main goal of cutting the salmon plants is to increase the number of alewives. With the phenomenal natural reproduction they're seeing for kings, they could become over populated. ((Which is one cause of Huron's crash)The number of natural reproducing kings were severely underestimated causing an unexpected amount of adult salmon in years leading to the crash)

Lake Michigan has been lucky enough to avoid the catastrophic crash by the way of quaggq muscles because of the lack of rock structure throughout the lake as compared to Lake Huron.

The issue with our alewives right now is not sheer numbers. But the numbers of adult alewives. Alewives have a 7year life cycle, but are not considered adult(reproducing) until the age of 4. Once these fish grow to the size they are, around the 4 year mark, they are the PERFECT target for our kings. Having an over abundance of kings can severely impact the number of reproducing alewives by over feeding, which will in-turn cause low spawning numbers. It turns into a vicious cycle.

Unfortunately, carp and alewives are completely different issues, but could essentially be detrimental to our fishery. Both of these issues have to be looked at, but on a separate basis.

Prevention of the carp entering the great lakes is by far the most important step.

The next step is sustaining a forage base for our kings. If there aren't alewives there aren't salmon. It's as simple as that.

I agree with keeping them out, but we're very bad at that. Now what you/and they say too many salmon/predators will wipe out the alewives. So Predators can wipe out/ control Asian Carp, (google Biotic-resistance) principle applies to all invasives good read. If the asian Carp get control of the spawning areas, that's the end of the alewives regardless of how many salmon there is, but they'll wipe the rest as well, while the salmon are out in the lake.

[Twill23]

Are you suggesting introducing a predatory fish that will help control the population of an invasive species that grow up to 20+lbs and regularly reach the 10lb mark?

Again, I totally support the fact that the invasion of "asian carp" will totally extinguish the entire great lakes fishery. These fish do not only feed on plankton, they also feed on dead plant matter. If they are not prevented from entering and establishing within the great lakes it will be detrimental to ALL fisheries. Not just our beloved salmon.

In my personal opinion, as well as hope: The carp are such efficient at what they do, they could end out eating themselves out of house and home. Again in my personal opinion the reason these fish are migrating north is because that phase is already starting to take place in southern areas. Whether it's sheer numbers and over population that has pushed them up river, or lack of food.(one species of asian carp is known to eat up to 3times it's body weight PER DAY) This could be an extremely long cycle. 10years? 20years? Your guess is as good as mine.

But merely giving up on preventing entrance is by far the wrong answer.

And yes, overpopulating of salmon WILL totally diminish the alewife population. It's already happened. For those who haven't totally seen the effect of it I encourage you to take a trip to the Salmon capital of Michigan. We have a few member's from the town of Roger's City who I think could chime in on what has happened to their town because of the crash.

I believe that most would agree, Lake Michigan has safely rebounded from the crash they suffered in relation to the kidney disease, which totally crippled king and coho fishing in the late 80's into the early 90's.

Reducing the number of plants is about risk reduction. Not everything can totally be controlled, and there will ALWAYS be new threats to our fishery.

These two issues have to be dealt with. Although they greatly rely on each other, they MUST both be addressed as separate issues.

In summary: "Asian carp" MUST BE prevented from establishing in our great lakes(and tributaries).

I urge everyone to support, and express opinions on what should be, and could be done.

The alewife population MUST BE CONTROLLED to sustain a productive salmon fishery.

On a positive note:

We're coming up on 10 years since the crash, and we're just getting into a slight rebound. Our secondary fishery is really starting to take off. IE:Walleye, Lake Trout(which has been phenomenal because of the abundance of golbies) Steel Head, and Atlantics.

Our smelt numbers have increased exponentially in the last 5 years. Several local areas are dipping limits of smelt for the first time in ages! Numbers in the DNR and Nation Fish and Wildlife survey nets show an extremely positive outlook on our fishery.

[GLF]

Mike,

That isn't the issue. The issue is what the carp would do to our forage base. These asian carp feed on plankton. They feed at an astronomical rate compared to our common carp that are already plentiful in our lakes.

We already are fighting a battle with quagga and zebra muscles, which essentially do the same thing. The quagga muscles is what destroyed Lake Huron. They filtered the lake so efficiently that they totally wiped out the forage base to our alewives.

Adding another filter feeder to Lake Michigan could totally wipe out the forage base of alewives, essentially wiping out our salmon. Another issue with the "asian carp" is their reproductive cycle. These fish will spawn up to 3 times per year!!!

The main goal of cutting the salmon plants is to increase the number of alewives. With the phenomenal natural reproduction they're seeing for kings, they could become over populated. ((Which is one cause of Huron's crash)The number of natural reproducing kings were severely underestimated causing an unexpected amount of adult salmon in years leading to the crash)

Lake Michigan has been lucky enough to avoid the catastrophic crash by the way of quaggq muscles because of the lack of rock structure throughout the lake as compared to Lake Huron.

The issue with our alewives right now is not sheer numbers. But the numbers of adult alewives. Alewives have a 7year life cycle, but are not considered adult(reproducing) until the age of 4. Once these fish grow to the size they are, around the 4 year mark, they are the PERFECT target for our kings. Having an over abundance of kings can severely impact the number of reproducing alewives by over feeding, which will in-turn cause low spawning numbers. It turns into a vicious cycle.

Unfortunately, carp and alewives are completely different issues, but could essentially be detrimental to our fishery. Both of these issues have to be looked at, but on a separate basis.

Prevention of the carp entering the great lakes is by far the most important step.

The next step is sustaining a forage base for our kings. If there aren't alewives there aren't salmon. It's as simple as that.

I know the carp are filter feeders and will take away the plankton from the alewives and other fish that depend on it.

My comment may not have been clear. It was about the salmon being a predator and eating the juvenile carp.

[Twill23]

I know the carp are filter feeders and will take away the plankton from the alewives and other fish that depend on it.

My comment may not have been clear. It was about the salmon being a predator and eating the juvenile carp.

Sorry Mike,

I shouldn't have put your name in the direct heading. Nor directed the response towards you.

The post was more as a general information post.

I've spent a lot of time both in college as well as with local fishery biologist learning, and studying as much as I possibly could.

Unfortunately I was much apart of the suffrage that went along with the crash in Lake Huron.

It's terrifying to me personally that the extinction of our salmon fishery as we know it, is a very real possibility.

Again i apologize.

[GLF]

Sorry Mike,

I shouldn't have put your name in the direct heading. Nor directed the response towards you.

The post was more as a general information post.

I've spent a lot of time both in college as well as with local fishery biologist learning, and studying as much as I possibly could.

Unfortunately I was much apart of the suffrage that went along with the crash in Lake Huron.

It's terrifying to me personally that the extinction of our salmon fishery as we know it, is a very real possibility.

Again i apologize.

No need to apologize. Asian carp are a huge concern!

The government needs to get off their ass and be proactive instead of reactive! The asian carp are knocking on the door to get into the Great Lakes.......if not already here! We do not have time to wait for a 2 year study to be done before anything gets done.

[EdB]

Here is a link to the stocking conference, the two videos in the linked webpage are very informative. You can participate in the conference in person or online if you pre-regisiter.

http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/fisheries/stocking/index.html

Here is a summary of the stocking cut proposals that will be discussed. The DNR will be taking public comments on these proposals for a number of months until a final decision is made:

Here are the options that will be presented and discussed at the meeting. Pretty much all the other information that will be presented is on the Michigan Sea Grant Web site.

1.

Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 50% and evaluate after five

years.

•

This option follows our existing policy to make a change, evaluate the results

over five years, and come back to the public for future changes.

2. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 50% and make additional

reductions to stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4

lbs) or increase stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg

(17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

3. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 30% and a mix of coho

salmon, steelhead, and brown trout by 10% and make additional reductions

to stocking if weight of age- 3 Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4 lbs) or

increase stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg (17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

•

Reducing the stocking of other species reduces predation and maintains higher

Chinook abundance while protecting lake trout for rehabilitation purposes.

4. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 30% and a mix of other

salmon and trout species (coho salmon, steelhead, brown trout, and lake

trout) by 10% and make additional reductions to stocking if weight of age-3

Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4 lbs) or increase stocking if weight of age-

3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg (17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

•

Reducing the stocking of other species reduces predation and maintains higher

Chinook abundance.

[Mushy's Dad]

Does anyone know if the Wisconson Seagrant is "on board" with the Michigan Seagrant's plan?

Are they the same group?

[EdB]

Not sure about Wisconsin Seagrant's involvement but all the states DNR's around LK Mich are involved and cooperating on this. They choose Benton Harbor for the meeting so folks from IN, IL and WI could participate.

[WALRANGER5]

Are you suggesting introducing a predatory fish that will help control the population of an invasive species that grow up to 20+lbs and regularly reach the 10lb mark?

Again, I totally support the fact that the invasion of "asian carp" will totally extinguish the entire great lakes fishery. These fish do not only feed on plankton, they also feed on dead plant matter. If they are not prevented from entering and establishing within the great lakes it will be detrimental to ALL fisheries. Not just our beloved salmon.

In my personal opinion, as well as hope: The carp are such efficient at what they do, they could end out eating themselves out of house and home. Again in my personal opinion the reason these fish are migrating north is because that phase is already starting to take place in southern areas. Whether it's sheer numbers and over population that has pushed them up river, or lack of food.(one species of asian carp is known to eat up to 3times it's body weight PER DAY) This could be an extremely long cycle. 10years? 20years? Your guess is as good as mine.

But merely giving up on preventing entrance is by far the wrong answer.

And yes, overpopulating of salmon WILL totally diminish the alewife population. It's already happened. For those who haven't totally seen the effect of it I encourage you to take a trip to the Salmon capital of Michigan. We have a few member's from the town of Roger's City who I think could chime in on what has happened to their town because of the crash.

I believe that most would agree, Lake Michigan has safely rebounded from the crash they suffered in relation to the kidney disease, which totally crippled king and coho fishing in the late 80's into the early 90's.

Reducing the number of plants is about risk reduction. Not everything can totally be controlled, and there will ALWAYS be new threats to our fishery.

These two issues have to be dealt with. Although they greatly rely on each other, they MUST both be addressed as separate issues.

In summary: "Asian carp" MUST BE prevented from establishing in our great lakes(and tributaries).

I urge everyone to support, and express opinions on what should be, and could be done.

The alewife population MUST BE CONTROLLED to sustain a productive salmon fishery.

On a positive note:

We're coming up on 10 years since the crash, and we're just getting into a slight rebound. Our secondary fishery is really starting to take off. IE:Walleye, Lake Trout(which has been phenomenal because of the abundance of golbies) Steel Head, and Atlantics.

Our smelt numbers have increased exponentially in the last 5 years. Several local areas are dipping limits of smelt for the first time in ages! Numbers in the DNR and Nation Fish and Wildlife survey nets show an extremely positive outlook on our fishery.

I recommend doing some research on alewives, they are not just prey, they are predators. invasive predators. It's illegal in vermont to transport alewives dead or alive. They eat plankton, all fish are considered plankton at some time.

[WALRANGER5]

No need to apologize. Asian carp are a huge concern!

The government needs to get off their ass and be proactive instead of reactive! The asian carp are knocking on the door to get into the Great Lakes.......if not already here! We do not have time to wait for a 2 year study to be done before anything gets done.

Actually 2015 maybe 2016, I participated in a GLMRIS confrence call, then proposals have to be presented to congress, to vote on, 2020 maybe? The Fed Asian Carp team are non-binding advisory, they have no power to implement anything, (I asked). We have no control over politics or how the carp will get in. We can control how many predators they run into, and thier impact, and make it very hard for them to survive in our lakes. This is basic fish biology, (predator prey balance) does not just apply to salmon and alewives, it applies to the whole ball a wax!

[WALRANGER5]

Here is a link to the stocking conference, the two videos in the linked webpage are very informative. You can participate in the conference in person or online if you pre-regisiter.

http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/fisheries/stocking/index.html

Here is a summary of the stocking cut proposals that will be discussed. The DNR will be taking public comments on these proposals for a number of months until a final decision is made:

Here are the options that will be presented and discussed at the meeting. Pretty much all the other information that will be presented is on the Michigan Sea Grant Web site.

1.

Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 50% and evaluate after five

years.

•

This option follows our existing policy to make a change, evaluate the results

over five years, and come back to the public for future changes.

2. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 50% and make additional

reductions to stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4

lbs) or increase stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg

(17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

3. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 30% and a mix of coho

salmon, steelhead, and brown trout by 10% and make additional reductions

to stocking if weight of age- 3 Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4 lbs) or

increase stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg (17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

•

Reducing the stocking of other species reduces predation and maintains higher

Chinook abundance while protecting lake trout for rehabilitation purposes.

4. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 30% and a mix of other

salmon and trout species (coho salmon, steelhead, brown trout, and lake

trout) by 10% and make additional reductions to stocking if weight of age-3

Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4 lbs) or increase stocking if weight of age-

3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg (17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

•

Reducing the stocking of other species reduces predation and maintains higher

Chinook abundance.

They recently found the invasive white perch are increasing and spreading into lake Michigan, i'm sure they are eating alewives as well, (no reason not too) I catch them trolling 7 inch cranks. they also eat fish eggs, alewives don't gaurd thier eggs and they spawn right on top of the invasive white Perch, and gobies as well. How do we reduce these other predators, to "balance" things? Edited April 13, 2012 by WALRANGER5
reason

[WALRANGER5]

Sorry Mike,

I shouldn't have put your name in the direct heading. Nor directed the response towards you.

The post was more as a general information post.

I've spent a lot of time both in college as well as with local fishery biologist learning, and studying as much as I possibly could.

Unfortunately I was much apart of the suffrage that went along with the crash in Lake Huron.

It's terrifying to me personally that the extinction of our salmon fishery as we know it, is a very real possibility.

Again i apologize.

With respect, the extinction of all our fisheries are at risk, our native fish have a very real chance at controlling/ minimizing the Asian Carp and the other 180 invasives. Are you willing to risk it all for one fish? Would switching to steelhead/browns really kill you?

[Twill23]

This will be my last post on this topic. This is considered a helpful and informative forum, not an argue and bash forum. I do not, however, believe people should be given incorrect information.

I would like to point out alewife ARE NOT predatory fish. They are distinctly classified as a "baitfish." Classifying them as a predatory fish would be like classifying grass as a predator because it absorbs nutrients from the ground. Yes alewife do feed on larva. But their MAIN forage is that of plankton.

Secondly, white perch are a feeder fish for walleye and lake trout. Hence the take off of the two species. White perch have also been prevalent since the 1960's during the peak of the alewife boom.

Thirdly, Asian carp have no natural predators in north america. Period. Trying to eradicate them by introducing another species is just not an option. Our native fish WILL NOT handle the issue. These fish reproduce much too fast, and grow MUCH too fast. They will achieve adult hood much too fast for any of our species of fish in the Great Lakes to feed on them. Big heads alone can grow up to 12 pounds per year!!!!

Again, our native species have NO CHANCE at controlling asian carp.

Currently there is only one proposed solution to eradicating the species if they do establish in our lakes, and this is trying to impede access to their spawning grounds. All species of asian carp are very particular about their spawning rituals. But if they become establish, that could turn into an extremely long cycle.

As far as turning towards browns and steelhead as a sustainable sport fishery, that is NOT an option without alewives. This is clearly pointed out with the crash of Lake Huron. Both species depend heavily on the alewife population in lake michigan(as they did in lake huron). Currently there has been a slight uptick in the numbers of both species in lake huron, but this is largly due to the large increase in the smelt population, which MAY be able to sustain a decent population of both species. That is yet to be seen.

I will again state that i believe that the alewife issue, and the invasion of asian carp are separate issues. Right now trying to sustain our alewife population is number one in keeping a strong salmon fishery. This of course is short term in the big picture.

For the longevity of our fishery, and ALL fisheries asian carp HAVE to be stopped from establishing within the great lakes.

Again i strongly support the cuts of salmon plants in upcoming years. In 2006 we received cuts in lake michigan. This may have been absolutely perfect timing. 2008 was an extremely bad year for adult kings, but numbers and size have since rebounded. Most around the lake, i believe, will agree.

I truly wish this type of effort, research, and thought was put into Lake Huron before the crash!

[Jay Wesley]

Does anyone know if the Wisconson Seagrant is "on board" with the Michigan Seagrant's plan?

Are they the same group?

Michigan Sea Grant is coordinating the meeting and information exchange. All state agenciesa and CORA (representing tribes) are on board with some sort of stocking reductions.

If you can not make the meeting, there will be a web cast. If you can not get on the web cast, there is plenty of info on the Sea Grant page and there will be a survey monkey available by Saturday to start making comments too.

Thanks EdB for inviting me to this forum. I will try my best to keep tabs on it to answer your questions.

Jay Wesley

MDNR Fisheries

Plainwell, Michigan.

[Mushy's Dad]

Jay,

Thank you for the info!

Welcome to GLF!

[fishsniffer]

thanks jay:thumb: