Walleye slot limits?

[WALRANGER5]

After 7 years of research into asian Carp/invasive species problems/controls, we are our own worst enemy. History has shown us overfishing to be our primary problem, leading to the invasive mess/dominance we have today. Slot limits have been proven to protect spawning females, according to one study more eggs are natures safety factor, to overcome varibles in the system. Invasive species disrupt spawn attempts, recruitment. One Walleye over 23 inches, is simple, easy to understand and proven in Bay De Noc, to provide and maintain a quality healthy Walleye population. This does not reduce the limit it just makes us better stewards of the resource. We will need all the predators we can find, with the Asian Carp in the game. Barriers will not stop them, and ray guns and underwater goby cannons are a joke. We should also drop the Perch limit to at least 25, Lake Gogebic did this also to be better stewards of the resource, we are supposed to be good stewards of every fishery we have, not just here or there. I could catch and release 5 pound walleyes all day long, versus catching little or nothing, or getting smacked by flying Asian Carp. ( The novelty wears off fast, trust me, I've been to Illinois) Bottomline is what we've been doing isn't working. Waiting until Asian Carp get to 90% like they did with alewives, would be a bad thing. And they planted predators to control the alewives.

[Priority1]

I am not in favor of slot limits but I will keep an open mind on the subject. I have fished the Saginaw Bay since about 1950. I remember in the 80s when it was the norm to boat a couple of 8# fish and a small one was 24 inches. The pendulum swings. Back during that same period Lake Erie was loaded with dinks and I believe they reduced the size limit there to 13 inches. I believe they also had a 6 fish limit. I feel the Saginaw Bay is healthy. Why fix something that isn't broken?

The Carp issue needs to be dealt with quickly. I don't think the carp issue should be used to push for different programs such as slot limits.

[ALLEYES]

Well said Frank.

[Priority1]

Good stewardship is truly what is all about. Personally I don't like targeting the big spawning females. I guess I'm old school and fish for fun and eats. I'd rather target walleye in the 17-24 inch range.

When it comes to perch fishing I will not sit and sort 100 fish to get 25. Out of the 75 fish returned the gulls get more than half of them. If I can sit on a good school of perch and keep at least half then I justify it in my own mind.

Like I said I'm old school. I do respect others rights to do as they see fit as long as it's within the law. Laws do change and sometimes they get too complicated.

[WALRANGER5]

I am not in favor of slot limits but I will keep an open mind on the subject. I have fished the Saginaw Bay since about 1950. I remember in the 80s when it was the norm to boat a couple of 8# fish and a small one was 24 inches. The pendulum swings. Back during that same period Lake Erie was loaded with dinks and I believe they reduced the size limit there to 13 inches. I believe they also had a 6 fish limit. I feel the Saginaw Bay is healthy. Why fix something that isn't broken?

The Carp issue needs to be dealt with quickly. I don't think the carp issue should be used to push for different programs such as slot limits.

I am not using the carp issue, the Asian Carp are part of the issue, add 180+ other invasive species, the whole picture. Invasive species dominate and have the high numbers to have good spawns every year, yet native fish struggle. The slot limit lets you keep a wallhanger if you want, but low numbers of females comes up over and over in studies about recruitment. No one needs to catch 50 Perch per day, 25 is plenty, you need more take a kid fishing with you. They found 80 pound + Asian Carp in some landlocked lagoons in Chicago, if they can grow that big with a very limited amount of food available, they'll do just fine here. How long it takes the Asian Carp to become 90% like every other place they went, is the unknown. Without or low predators it will happen fast. The lakes have changed we have to change.

[WALRANGER5]

Good stewardship is truly what is all about. Personally I don't like targeting the big spawning females. I guess I'm old school and fish for fun and eats. I'd rather target walleye in the 17-24 inch range.

When it comes to perch fishing I will not sit and sort 100 fish to get 25. Out of the 75 fish returned the gulls get more than half of them. If I can sit on a good school of perch and keep at least half then I justify it in my own mind.

Like I said I'm old school. I do respect others rights to do as they see fit as long as it's within the law. Laws do change and sometimes they get too complicated.

I don't target big females either, I just fish, if I catch a big female, great, but just because I can keep it, doesn't mean I should. We've got way too many people, that don't know how too count, the "I ain't driving all this way for 5 fish" crowd. If guys are making multiple trips per day, a slot limit has some control at the scene of the crime, at least protects the spawner/egg makers. Higher levels means more predators of invasive species, if we ever wound up with too many, have a high catch weekend, to thin them out. Slot limits cost nothing to protect the resource, the carp play for keeps, so should we.

[WALRANGER5]

Some points to ponder. Asian carp not only eat zooplankton, they eat larval native fish. Perch and Walleye along with any pelagic (air bladder) fish is at risk. I have an E-mail from a Chinese expert that says this is so, and from Duanne Chapman the US Asian Carp expert, believes this is so as well, but Duane wants to do a study. Same thing the alewives were doing in Saginaw bay, but in a mega kinda way, they increased/stocked Walleyes/predators to get rid of the alewives, Walleyes surviving. We have the advantage of knowing the carp are coming. The reverse of what the alewives were doing, is native fish/predators doing it to the invasive species. Asian Carp have the same weak spot as any fish, surviving the spawn attempt. Once Asian Carp get too big, they can live 25+ years, feeding and waiting for the right time to spawn. The alewives kept the Walleye population in Saginaw knocked down for many years, because they had high numbers, and controled the spawn of it's competitor/predator. Any thing we can do to maintain high native fish/predator levels restricts any invasive species. Letting some big females go, seems a small price to control Asian Carp, or any invasive species. You still get to catch it, it gets to feed and breed another day! Fair trade. Asian Carp are a 100 pound zebramussel /alewife combo, there is no greater threat.

[I_Catch_Her]

Sport fishing is intened to be a means to manage a resource. Leaving aside the obvious reality that those entrusted with such auhority have failed, I personally believe slot limits are overdue on the great lakes.

Also leaving aside the invasive specie problem, slot limits protect the most important age class; the breeding class. I have fond memories as a child of my Fathers success fly fishing for Brook Trout. Those fish are gone from the Black River and most lower michigan waters. I stopped fly fishing myself because there just aren't the fish anymore.

Considering the threat posed by invasive species there is no doubt that we have to change to meet that ever increasing threat. Slot limits are not a panacea, but they are an effective tool that I believe should be used.

Paul

[JWheeler]

I can't get on board with the thought that a slot limit will solve the Asian Carp potential nightmare. I can however get on board with the sentiments that it is an issue that there are too many differing opinions and that more research and testing will utlimately take too long and interim the problem will extend into the great lakes and ensueing is the potential disaster that they could wipe out great lakes sport fishing. This will be a disaster caused by man, and I believe that it's high time that the powers that be get off of their keesters and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. We can theorize all we want, but in a practical world it seems that the revenue generated by the great lakes sport fishing community is pale in comparison to the shipping industry that uses the canal where asian carp infiltration will (if it has not already) occurred. Sure would be nice if we could get some officials not only to fight on our side regarding this issue, but to GET RESULTS. This has been an on going issue now for already too long, and the longer this issue persists, the more likely that great lakes sport fishing can put one foot after the other into the grave

[Priority1]

This thread has brought out some good points. Everything is a delicate balance. The slot limit obviously would keep more large fish in the system. More large fish would feed on small walleye and perch. It is a balancing act and I'm feeling the Saginaw Bay is as good as it has ever been. We just came off one of the best perch years in recent history. The walleye fishery is fantastic. I know we can't ignore the Asian Carp threat but I still need convincing that a slot limit is the answer. We had different groups pushing for slot limits long before the Asian Carp came to our door. Some people want to see and catch a lot of big fish. I like it the way it is.

[JWheeler]

I am with you P1. I just don't think there will really be any cause and affect on the asian carp with a slot limit implemented on walleye. I think that is apples and oranges.

[WALRANGER5]

This thread has brought out some good points. Everything is a delicate balance. The slot limit obviously would keep more large fish in the system. More large fish would feed on small walleye and perch. It is a balancing act and I'm feeling the Saginaw Bay is as good as it has ever been. We just came off one of the best perch years in recent history. The walleye fishery is fantastic. I know we can't ignore the Asian Carp threat but I still need convincing that a slot limit is the answer. We had different groups pushing for slot limits long before the Asian Carp came to our door. Some people want to see and catch a lot of big fish. I like it the way it is.

Please google (common carp control using native predators)

you'll find many examples, predators that disrupt the spawn is the key. Also (biotic resistance native predators) "control the spawn control the fish" Alewives have been proving this for 50 years. In Minnesota they found for the first 2 years after putting in a slot limit, there was 20-30% non-compliance, this tells 70-80% had no problem with it, the rest fell in later. A buddy a couple years ago told me this guy he knows went to Lake Erie 6 times put 966 Walleyes in the freezer. I have heard many such stories, this was the worst, I've heard the same stories about Saginaw Bay. Any restrictions on us, always benefits the fish. Canadian fly in lakes all have slot limits. A couple lakes in Canada, close every other year to give them a break. Throwing back some females doesn't seem that tuff to do. I've been playing catch and release for the last 5 years, Perch, Walleye, and Pike. I go inland for eating fish. Predators makes the entire body of water a control, how much control is determined by how many predators you have. We are not in danger of having too many native fish. Electric/bubbles/noise/light barriers will not stop the Asian Carp, a living predator barrier controls the fish! The FWS is planting Alligator Gar down south as predators for the carp, we don't need gar, just a high level of predators.

[WALRANGER5]

I am with you P1. I just don't think there will really be any cause and affect on the asian carp with a slot limit implemented on walleye. I think that is apples and oranges.

"Lack of predators" has been the standard statement, since our invasive problems started. Prior to us getting here, the lakes were teeming with fish that all got along just fine. Lake trout is not our only predator.

[WALRANGER5]

I can't get on board with the thought that a slot limit will solve the Asian Carp potential nightmare. I can however get on board with the sentiments that it is an issue that there are too many differing opinions and that more research and testing will utlimately take too long and interim the problem will extend into the great lakes and ensueing is the potential disaster that they could wipe out great lakes sport fishing. This will be a disaster caused by man, and I believe that it's high time that the powers that be get off of their keesters and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. We can theorize all we want, but in a practical world it seems that the revenue generated by the great lakes sport fishing community is pale in comparison to the shipping industry that uses the canal where asian carp infiltration will (if it has not already) occurred. Sure would be nice if we could get some officials not only to fight on our side regarding this issue, but to GET RESULTS. This has been an on going issue now for already too long, and the longer this issue persists, the more likely that great lakes sport fishing can put one foot after the other into the grave

We can be restoring native fish/predators while the Feds drag there feet, this does not interfere with any other Asian Carp/invasive species plans. Not to blow my own horn, but I got Carp Czar John Goss to admit that on record at the Saginaw meeting. The carp are already in the lake, we are waiting for the big bag, a spawn. This has been the pattern so far, they see nothing or a couple then bang, thousands of baby carp. Asian Carp can live 25+ years spawn 3 to 4 times a year, millions of eggs. So every fish that gets eaten before they can do that is important. "There is no comparision between that which is lost by not succeeding and that which is lost by not trying" Big fish eat little fish, is not a theory, plain fact. I can guarantee fish get hungry, can't gaurantee nothing with bubbles!

[JWheeler]

Of course you're making the assumption that walleye will eat the carp. And from what you've stated

"Not to blow my own horn, but I got Carp Czar John Goss to admit that on record at the Saginaw meeting. The carp are already in the lake, we are waiting for the big bag, a spawn. This has been the pattern so far, they see nothing or a couple then bang, thousands of baby carp"

The carp are here already and we're just waiting for the explosion of them in our great lakes, well mainly SW Lake Michigan near Chicago?

Not sure how a slot limit on the Saginaw Bay would help control asian carp that are in our lakes in SW Lake Michigan......

[WALRANGER5]

Of course you're making the assumption that walleye will eat the carp. And from what you've stated

"Not to blow my own horn, but I got Carp Czar John Goss to admit that on record at the Saginaw meeting. The carp are already in the lake, we are waiting for the big bag, a spawn. This has been the pattern so far, they see nothing or a couple then bang, thousands of baby carp"

The carp are here already and we're just waiting for the explosion of them in our great lakes, well mainly SW Lake Michigan near Chicago?

Not sure how a slot limit on the Saginaw Bay would help control asian carp that are in our lakes in SW Lake Michigan......

I'd like to see the slot limit statewide, Walleyes in the Muskegon system haven't had a good natural spawn in over 50 years. Asian Carp are spineless prey, juveniles look just like baby shad walleyes and perch, eat shad. I doubt they will stop to ask if it's from China because Chinese food give them gas, they'll just eat them. We could spend more millions on studies, and waste more time. Looking at the whole lake I'd say west Michigan will be hit the hardest, most spawning/nursery area. But it doesn't matter where they get thier start, without predators or low predators they get a start. In just under 40 years Asian carp have spread over 1/2 of the U.S. this is not very long, out of 10,000 years. If the Asian Carp start spawning in Erie first, they'll repeat the path of the alewives, if they spawn in Lake Michigan they'll do it in reverse, but they'll be in Saginaw. They don't really know exactly where the Asian carp are. or how many. Having a healthy native predator population, makes the whole area a control. If you knew the history of the electric barrier, there wasn't much in the water to stop them, until recently, and 2.3 volts isn't high enough. Thier original tests said 4 volts was needed for all sizes, they even argued among themselves when the "new" study came out. There is no if they get in the lake, they will spread to all the lakes no matter which end they start at. Slot limits are a simple no cost thing we can do, to help our native fish fight back. Barrier costs are unsustainable, don't really do anything. Special poisons that don't exist yet, maybe never will, studies that require more study. This not an isolated incident, we have an invasive species/asian carp problem now, they let it go too long, before they did anything.

[WALRANGER5]

If I may, I have some studies condensed hard copy, if anyone would like to post the mailing address of a bait shop near you, I'd be more than happy to send copies, no charge. I had a couple hundred copies printed. I have no idea where you guys/gals are, a bait shop can pass it out to more people.

I'll include a copy of barrier history as well.

If you feel you need permission from the bait shop owner please do. If your from out of state, no problem, principle is the same, problem is the same, for all of us.

[Priority1]

Tom, You obviously did your homework on the subject. Is there walleye being planted in the Muskegon system? I know some people do well on Muskegon Lake. If what you say is true, maybe a slot limit should be tried where the natural reproduction is lacking. You haven't sold me yet on a State wide Slot Limit program, but I never close my mind to anything. I'm an ole dog that still tries new tricks. I'm not a biologist but I spend a lot of time on and around the Bay. The Bay has a watershed second to none. This watershed is what natural reproduction is all about. I don't even mind if the fish tagged on the Titt swim to Alpena. I love what we have and I hope my grandchildren and their grandchildren can experience what I have. Gotta Luv Dat Bay. Lord knows I do.

[WALRANGER5]

Tom, You obviously did your homework on the subject. Is there walleye being planted in the Muskegon system? I know some people do well on Muskegon Lake. If what you say is true, maybe a slot limit should be tried where the natural reproduction is lacking. You haven't sold me yet on a State wide Slot Limit program, but I never close my mind to anything. I'm an ole dog that still tries new tricks. I'm not a biologist but I spend a lot of time on and around the Bay. The Bay has a watershed second to none. This watershed is what natural reproduction is all about. I don't even mind if the fish tagged on the Titt swim to Alpena. I love what we have and I hope my grandchildren and their grandchildren can experience what I have. Gotta Luv Dat Bay. Lord knows I do.

Keep in mind, the fishing in Saginaw bay now, is the result of restoring the Walleyes to self sustaining levels, and getting rid of the alewives (by predation of Walleyes) which feed much like Asian carp and don't grow too big, they had control for a very long time, only a healthy predator population got and keeps them in ckeck. Michigan outdoor news said catching a lot of little Walleyes, harder to catch keepers or big ones, not stunt according to Jim Baker. Probably because keepers are going home with sombody. Muskegon Lake Walleye fishing sucks, dumb luck mostly to catch one. Best fishing is Dec. Jan, middle of the night, if you have open water. Muskegon lake is stocked, at 1 inch, in June right when the lake is full of alewives. The Muskegon Walleye pond was started 1978, by the Muskegon steelheaders, they planted in July, a lot less, but big enough to fin clip. Fishing was good in the early 80's, 1985 DNR took the pond away from the Steeheaders, started stocking in June, Walleyes dropping ever since. I'd be happy if the DNR insists on June if they dump them in the swamp, instead of right into millions of alewives, but that's me.

[WALRANGER5]

MDNR Fisheries special report 41 2007 Ecology, Management, and status of Walleye, sauger and Yellow Perch in Michigan. Please find and read this one. one quote "The presence of a high proportion of older adults and the oppotunity for a female to spawn more than more than once per lifetime, are biological safety factors that help buffer a population from enviromental instability and help insure perpetuity of the population" Pretty simple, slot limits help with this and cost nothing, doesn't change the limit either, just keeps more females in the game to reload it for next year, and the year after that etc... It also keeps predators in the game. Poison is a one use thing, it costs everytime you use poison. Native predators multiple use fish killer one time cost, or no cost, with natural recruitment! Environmentally friendly where poison is not. There is no downside to having a high/healthy native fish population, all downside healthy Asian Carp population.

[JWheeler]

Thought you would like to know that alewive decline in Lake Huron wasn't due to predation, Both lakes are afflicted by invasive quagga and zebra mussels, which compete with lower food chain organisms for food. Particularly, the mussels’ hoarding of nutrients affected the alewives, the chief source of food for adult chinook salmon. Along with smaller year classes that didn't make it through the winter you have the demise of Lake Huron Alewive's preceding the salmon crash of huron.

[Eyefull]

I am all for doing what is necessary to stop the spread of asian carp. That being said, I don't see a reasonable connection between a slot limit on walleye and accomplishing that end. If your trying to push for a slot limit, and I have also thought about it as well, then do it on its own merits, seperate from the asian carp issue. A slot limit would keep larger fish in the system longer, maybe resulting in more trophy fish caught down the road. The walleye fishery on Saginaw Bay/Lake Huron is already a formidable predator status, a slot won't do much to change that either way. The asian carp problem, and any initiative to go to a slot system are two seperate issues.

[WALRANGER5]

Thought you would like to know that alewive decline in Lake Huron wasn't due to predation, Both lakes are afflicted by invasive quagga and zebra mussels, which compete with lower food chain organisms for food. Particularly, the mussels’ hoarding of nutrients affected the alewives, the chief source of food for adult chinook salmon. Along with smaller year classes that didn't make it through the winter you have the demise of Lake Huron Alewive's preceding the salmon crash of huron.

Yes Sir, I am well aware of the DNR staments regarding that issue. Curious thing, is zebra mussels only seem to affect alewives and only in Lake Huron? By only reducing the Alewives main predators, (salmon) and in the middle of 100 trillion zebra/quagga mussels in Lake Michigan, the alewives have rebounded quite well. An article that just came out yesterday, in the Toledo Blade 1/22/12 ( Invader nears gate to Lake Erie) regarding Asian Carp. I quote, " In Lake Erie we will have more carp than the other four great lakes combined. Jeff Reutter Ohio Seas grant "They need the high nutrient conditions present in the western basin to thrive. We'll have far more than anyone else, if they get in" Lake Erie has zebra/quagga mussels, had them first, yet plenty of food? If the zebra mussels wiped out the alewives "practically overnight" as the DNR says, why haven't they done that elsewhere and to all the fish? Saginaw bay was the main spawning/ground nursery area for alewives, coincidence that the crash occured the same time as the waleye restoration? With respect, let's just say, i'm not sold it's all the alewives fault. They eat food, all invasives do eat something.

[WALRANGER5]

I am all for doing what is necessary to stop the spread of asian carp. That being said, I don't see a reasonable connection between a slot limit on walleye and accomplishing that end. If your trying to push for a slot limit, and I have also thought about it as well, then do it on its own merits, seperate from the asian carp issue. A slot limit would keep larger fish in the system longer, maybe resulting in more trophy fish caught down the road. The walleye fishery on Saginaw Bay/Lake Huron is already a formidable predator status, a slot won't do much to change that either way. The asian carp problem, and any initiative to go to a slot system are two seperate issues.

We have an invasive species problem, Asian Carp are part of that. We are not going to have Asian Carp problem, we have an Asian carp problem. Check the ASIAN CARP spread map USGS, we have an electric barrier in Chicago, a chain link fence in Eagle marsh, holding all that back, that's it. If we gear up/ restore and maintain our native fish/predators for Asian Carp control, we also control the other 186 odd invasive species. Everything goes back to overfishing/lack of predators, that allowed invasives to thrive in the first place, no matter how they got in. Yes, we should use slot limits on thier own merits, it's the right thing to do. Look at our past, we ain't so good at doing the right thing, just because! We can do the right thing and control the invasive problems if we work together. It all ties in, us, the carp, the ecosystem, look at the whole picture.

[JWheeler]

Yes Sir, I am well aware of the DNR staments regarding that issue. Curious thing, is zebra mussels only seem to affect alewives and only in Lake Huron? By only reducing the Alewives main predators, (salmon) and in the middle of 100 trillion zebra/quagga mussels in Lake Michigan, the alewives have rebounded quite well. An article that just came out yesterday, in the Toledo Blade 1/22/12 ( Invader nears gate to Lake Erie) regarding Asian Carp. I quote, " In Lake Erie we will have more carp than the other four great lakes combined. Jeff Reutter Ohio Seas grant "They need the high nutrient conditions present in the western basin to thrive. We'll have far more than anyone else, if they get in" Lake Erie has zebra/quagga mussels, had them first, yet plenty of food? If the zebra mussels wiped out the alewives "practically overnight" as the DNR says, why haven't they done that elsewhere and to all the fish? Saginaw bay was the main spawning/ground nursery area for alewives, coincidence that the crash occured the same time as the waleye restoration? With respect, let's just say, i'm not sold it's all the alewives fault. They eat food, all invasives do eat something.

It's not only the DNR stating this FACT.