copper questions

[tangled mess]

Tangled mess I'm sure you are right about keeping it simple with one length of copper. It was recommended on an earlier post that I should use 40 lb. as a backer. It seemed the extra 10 lb. would be good insurance if I've got room on the 800. Is Ande the brand that you would use for a backer?

yes ande is what i use for backer either 20 or 25 and you will be fine that is what i have on all of my rods if you break the 20 or 25 than you got your drag to tight the 800 will do you fine with 20#

[Eyefull]

Yeah, I have messed around with all the tips from time to time. The twilly is the most commonly requested and it does the job fine. It is also the fugliest. The Aftco swivel tip is somewhat effective, however as the rod tip section twists over (like all guides on top rods do) the wire easily slides out of the roller and grinds the frame, just like all other roller tips. It has a SIC line guide after the roller that minimizes the effect, but still happens. Lately, I have been just using a SN tip for most builds. The difference in line twist between all of the common wire tips is almost not measurable. Keeping the line tight at all times and trimming a few feet of curly wire off periodically is more productive than a $50 tip. I haven't physically seen a Saltist wire rod yet. Kind of curious to see what kind of guides are on it. Yep the SNII's are about $5 per guide my cost.

Just looked up the Saltist rods, they have the SIC (Silicon Carbide) guides. Those rods are designed for wireline striper fishing (like most of the off the shelf wire rods) out east and are trolled flatlining bunker spoons and such. That is the issue with most of our Great Lakes trolling rods. The rod manufactureres just cut and paste saltwater trolling rod specs instead of doing actual research and designing task specific rods for freswater trolling. The saltwater market dwarfs our little niche, so spending much R&D dollars just doesn't make much sense to them. Not saying that they don't try to match our needs with task specific rods (copper, core, divers etc....), they just don't put much time, money, and effort into it. Those guides (SIC's) have been around for quite a while and like I said earlier will handle wire for short term or in a pinch periodically. For dedicated, daily wire diver duty, they will eventually groove.

Our wire rods pulling mag divers catch hell from the boats rocking. With that sea saw action and the drag of the diver, it acts like a bandsaw on guide rings. The wire is constantly being pulled back and forth a little under heavy load all day long.

[Eyefull]

Oh, while I am on the preaching podium and we're talking about line guides, lets talk about copper rod guides. I hear lots of conversation and advice about "using large guides" for copper. The myth is that you need very large guides to pass the knots. In reality, any guide larger than 8mm will pass any copper knot size and diameter wise, unless they're my knots lol. Copper knots and other line to line terminal knots hang up and catch guide rings from the blunt edge of the knot, running into the short radius of the guide ring surface. The guides are plenty big enough diameter to pass the knot, it is just the sharp radius of the guide ring meeting up with the blunt edge of the knot under load. More important than looking at the diameter of the guide rings, is making sure your copper rods have guides rings with a large radius to the rings on the edges. Thin guide rings with tight radius will be much more prone to catching knots than fat ones with large radius edges.

Back to sniffing glue:eek:

[wingnut]

Thanks for the update on tips and guides and I think your right about the sharp radius getting caught on the knotts. the Reading through some old posts several people sounded as though they liked the torpedo tips. The pic I looked at showed a small guide just behind the roller. I remember you experimenting with that Idea to keep the line from jumping out of the roller. Yea I haven't actually seen the saltist rod myself either, not much saltwater gear over here on the east side of the state. My thought on the copper rod guides is pretty much the same, when the knots and swivels start banging through the guides under some serious tension the guide inserts will be the first to get knocked out. The American tackle ring lock guides with the frame that wraps around the ring look like a good option for copper rods.

[Eyefull]

I haven't seen a torpedo tip. It does sound like a version I messed around with. I used a standard Neptune roller tip and wrapped two 6mm sic single foot guides on the tips tube leading into the roller. It worked to keep the line in the roller, but the roller itself became an issue. It had tiny screws from the outside of the frame, through the bearing that caught the wire when putting lines out with any smidgeon of slack.

Yep, the ringlock guides are tough to knock the insert out of. Actually, lots of the hardloy, aluminum oxide, and standard ceramic rings are larger in diameter and work nice for copper. You just have to get them in a frame tough enough for big lake fishing. Copper isn't abrasive, so any material works, just needs to be large radius for the knots and swivels.

[maketheturn]

try the smallest torpedo divers instead of the dive bombs less damage to the line