DIRTY DOG Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Bottom line, unless you were there your just speculating. And from all the posts ive read we seem to be getting no where. One member has already decided to leave over this, lets not continue this negativety. Everyone has said their piece and as grown men you should just agree to disagree. Whats done is done, bickering here isnt going to change what happened. If you have something more to say i encourage you to use the PM function instead of the public forum..If you want to discuss this in this post, keep your posts clean. No references to someone pulling heads out of ass and such!I was not on the boat. I will not judge BCT, and neither should anyone else!Very well put.
slickwater Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 This crazy. All of this for a fish. I have never entered a tournament because I can't afford it and I will probably never enter one because of all the stuff that happens.I know of a guy that won a tournament because he had friends on other boats helping him win. Because he needed the money. A cheater is a cheater no matter how well liked and how good they are at their sport. I am not saying Best Chance cheated because i don't really care if they did or not.I just won't fish a tournament because of all of the cheating.
Rayman96 Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 People on both sides of this are making it way too personal. People sitting behind keyboards make judgement calls from a distance. Everyone is entitled to express an opinion within the guidelines of this forum.I have no personal interest in this matter. I have heard of BC2 and read some of their articles. They seem like stand-up guys to this point.I also do not think this came about because of jealousy from lesser known anglers. A complaint may have been lodged by another pro. There are too many unknowns at this point.One thing I have learned with age is patience and not to let emotions cloud my judgement!This thing is far from over! Why?? I have never heard of a withdrawal from an event after the weigh-in is complete. Withdraw for any reason before weigh-in……………absolutely!!!For all parties concerned this matter should have been brought up before BC2 weighed their box. Have a quick investigation by questioning all parties concerned. Then this whole mess could have been avoided.At this point it looks like BC2 withdrew to avoid a polygraph.This tournament committee has put themselves behind the 8-ball. No matter how this works itself out, our sport will be the worse for it in the eyes of the public.http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/50881-people-who-filed-official-fishing-protests-speakhttp://www.ludingtontournament.com/event-informantion/pro-am-eventhttp://www.ludingtontournament.com/event-informantion/general-rules
Far Beyond Driven Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Flipped back through my logs, in the last three years (and about 450 fish) I've lost two fish at the back of the boat. One would think boats that land 1000's of fish a year could do that well.
steeliebob Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Just like the big buck contests when $$$$ is on the line people will point fingers and people will cheat. Everyone is after the almighty dollar in the high stakes tournament. I am not saying that this boat was cheating but if they had an observer on the boat the observer should have made a decision and it would have been final.If they withdrew from the tournament to save their reputation so be it. It is a done deal go back to fishing.
1mainiac Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 Sorry but it is not a done deal Cheating to win money is fraud in this case for 7500.00 dollars which in this state is a felony. Letting them walk after the event is no different then letting a bank robber give the money back. The observer on their boat Sat accused them of cheating yet they were allowed to weigh the box and fish Sun do you think they would have let you do that? Multiple boats protested them on Sun yet they walked up and took the check and the trophy I have no proof they cheated however if they did they are not only cheaters they are criminals. Sorry pretty much all cheaters are criminals because they are stealing something they don't earn or deserve. It don't matter if you cheat at golf or any sport if you gain something from it you stole it from someone else however in this case we are talking about felony level theft. There are lots of people doing hard time for taking much less than 7500 bucks. The statment that they did nothing that others have not done to win means that what they did is something they and quote others do all the time to steal from the rest of us who play by the rules. I guess now I know how they always have great boxes and I always end up with some shakers in my box cause I guess their big fish program includes clubbing the little ones of at the back of the boat. As for the rest of the guys in Pro Class they should consider sueing them for slander as BC2 pretty much outright accused all of them of cheating in print either that or admit they all cheat now and then to win.
DarkBlue Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 Sorry but it is not a done deal Cheating to win money is fraud in this case for 7500.00 dollars which in this state is a felony. Letting them walk after the event is no different then letting a bank robber give the money back. The observer on their boat Sat accused them of cheating yet they were allowed to weigh the box and fish Sun do you think they would have let you do that? Multiple boats protested them on Sun yet they walked up and took the check and the trophy I have no proof they cheated however if they did they are not only cheaters they are criminals. Sorry pretty much all cheaters are criminals because they are stealing something they don't earn or deserve. It don't matter if you cheat at golf or any sport if you gain something from it you stole it from someone else however in this case we are talking about felony level theft. There are lots of people doing hard time for taking much less than 7500 bucks. The statment that they did nothing that others have not done to win means that what they did is something they and quote others do all the time to steal from the rest of us who play by the rules. I guess now I know how they always have great boxes and I always end up with some shakers in my box cause I guess their big fish program includes clubbing the little ones of at the back of the boat. As for the rest of the guys in Pro Class they should consider sueing them for slander as BC2 pretty much outright accused all of them of cheating in print either that or admit they all cheat now and then to win. Jim, you got me thinking about this, and the possibility to be charged as a crime. The problem I find is who is the victim? Is it the tournament itself, or all the entrants. If it's all the entrants then it would be multiple charges vs. the tournament. Very interesting. Now I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just an interesting topic to think about. I'm pretty sure that it would fall under larceny by false pretenses, and if I'm reading it correctly and the tournament being the victim then the penalty would be a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $15,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine. That of course would be applicable to every person involved in the act. If it was charged as all entrants individually being the victim, the loss being the entry fee which I am assuming is greater than $200 and less than $1,000, then it would still be charged as a felony with the penalties being punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine. Either way it's a serious crime, with stiff penalties. Here is a copy of the law for your reading pleasure: THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT) Act 328 of 1931 750.218 False pretenses with intent to defraud; violation; penalty; enhanced sentence based on prior convictions; “false pretense” defined. Sec. 218. (1) A person who, with the intent to defraud or cheat makes or uses a false pretense to do 1 or more of the following is guilty of a crime punishable as provided in this section: (a) Cause a person to grant, convey, assign, demise, lease, or mortgage land or an interest in land. ( Obtain a person's signature on a forged written instrument. © Obtain from a person any money or personal property or the use of any instrument, facility, article, or other valuable thing or service. (d) By means of a false weight or measure obtain a larger amount or quantity of property than was bargained for. (e) By means of a false weight or measure sell or dispose of a smaller amount or quantity of property than was bargained for. (2) If the land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of less than $200.00, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $500.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine. (3) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $2,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine: (a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $200.00 or more but less than $1,000.00. ( The person violates subsection (2) and has 1 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section or a local ordinance substantially corresponding to this section. (4) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine: (a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $1,000.00 or more but less than $20,000.00. ( The person violates subsection (3)(a) and has 1 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section. For purposes of this subdivision, however, a prior conviction does not include a conviction for a violation or attempted violation of subsection (2) or (3)(. (5) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $15,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine: (a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $20,000.00 or more. ( The person violates subsection (4)(a) and has 2 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section. For purposes of this subdivision, however, a prior conviction does not include a conviction for a violation or attempted violation of subsection (2) or (3)(. (6) The values of land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of in separate incidents pursuant to a scheme or course of conduct within any 12-month period may be aggregated to determine the total value involved in the violation of this section. (7) If the prosecuting attorney intends to seek an enhanced sentence based upon the defendant having 1 or more prior convictions, the prosecuting attorney shall include on the complaint and information a statement listing the prior conviction or convictions. The existence of the defendant's prior conviction or convictions shall be determined by the court, without a jury, at sentencing or at a separate hearing for that purpose before sentencing. The existence of a prior conviction may be established by any evidence relevant for that purpose, including, but not limited to, 1 or more of the following: (a) A copy of the judgment of conviction. ( A transcript of a prior trial, plea-taking, or sentencing. © Information contained in a presentence report. (d) The defendant's statement. (8) If the sentence for a conviction under this section is enhanced by 1 or more prior convictions, those prior convictions shall not be used to further enhance the sentence for the conviction pursuant to section 10, 11, or 12 of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.10, 769.11, and 769.12. (9) As used in this section, “false pretense” includes, but is not limited to, a false or fraudulent representation, writing, communication, statement, or message, communicated by any means to another person, that the maker of the representation, writing, communication, statement, or message knows is false or fraudulent. The false pretense may be a representation regarding a past or existing fact or circumstance or a representation regarding the intention to perform a future event or to have a future event performed. History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.218 ;-- Am. 1957, Act 69, Eff. Sept. 27, 1957 ;-- Am. 1998, Act 312, Eff. Jan. 1, 1999 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 154, Eff. Sept. 1, 2004 Former Law: See section 39 of Ch. 154 of R.S. 1846, being CL 1857, § 5783; CL 1871, § 7590; How., § 9161; CL 1897, § 11575; CL 1915, § 15320; CL 1929, § 16916; Act 164 of 1867; Act 218 of 1879; and Act 234 of 1895. © 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan
1mainiac Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 My point exactly I remember reading about a guy who won a truck by cheating in a tourney going to jail.
Nailer Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Let's keep this civil guys. There's only been one perfect man ever made, and he was killed 2,000 years ago.
DarkBlue Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Nailer, I'm not trying to open any worms, just elaborating on an interesting point that Jim made. I'm not trying to crucify, or pardon anyone. Just putting the information out there. But I do see your point also.Chris
Rayman96 Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 There's only been one perfect man ever made, and he was killed 2,000 years ago.Amen to that.
1mainiac Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Not about who is perfect and who is not however cheating is stealing and if someone steals from you do you really care if he is normally a great guy and popular with his friends? Not in one place have I seen anyone including them say they did not knock off fish. All they said in the paper was that they did not do anything other guys don't do to win which means they accept that they broke the rules but hey lots of other guys do the same thing so it is all fair. I have no personal say in the outcome of this however I do have the right to point out the obvious and that is if they cheated to win 7500 dollars they are guilty of a felony in this and most states probably the only place they would not be guilty is Washington DC cause it is clear they don't consider it theft till it runs in the billions there. Lots of us have paid to hear them talk and wished we could win like them do you still want to win like they do? How much have they cheated all of us who fish out of over the years? And frankly if there is any truth to what they said in the paper there are a lot of other cheaters fishing for our money. And like it or not that sponsor money comes from us we buy the stuff they sell and some of the cost of what we buy goes to making sure the Pro Staff is out winning with their stuff so we will buy more of it cause it wins. The Auto industry standard was win on Sun sell on Mon. Heck I am just a little above a complete nobody and yet if I posted a huge box and said they all came on a flasher fly combo I bet a few people would go buy them or start fishing them if they had em in their boat. How many guys will run that Spin Doctor and fly combo that caught the big fish in the Dreamweaver for the next couple of weeks? My bet is by Sat 1/2 the boats out of Muskegon have one at least of the guys who have internet. Heck I might even run it and I have not ran a Spin Doctor in years I have em just don't run em.
spy1o1 Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 A pro bass fisherman was just caught cheating but hasn't been charged yet.This article also talks about other anglers cheating and being charged with felony contest fraud.http://www.bassfan.com/news_article.asp?ID=3679
GLF Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 These circumstances are different than the bass fishing stories. For starters, there were no sinkers/weights stuffed in the fishes mouth for extra weight. There were no extra fish hidden, tied up, or given to them from another boat.This is a "gray area" of the rules. It pushes the rules to the limit, but I do not see it as a violation. I am sure lots of boats skip in shakers to get the lines reset as fast as possible.Observers note that every effort must be made to net and land each fish. This is a no cull division. Observer must verify the exact length of all undersized fish returned to the lake. Returning fish without measuring is cheating and you will be disqualified with no refund. Any intentional act such as, but not limited to, shaking off, breaking off, burning off, etc. a fish, will subject team to disqualification.I do not see where you can not reel in a line as fast as possible to reset it.The guys in NASCAR push the rules to the limits, are they cheaters?What I want to know is how the amateurs can weigh in as much as, or more than the pros, with 2 less fish?
1mainiac Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 I don't think the issue was just reeling in skippers fast it more about clubbing them repeatedly with the net till they fell off. This was reported by several people including the observers on their boat for both days. Honestly Mike how many shakers do you lose in a year at the back of the boat? I am not all that good and I seldom lose one so if some stated they lost 4 smaller fish in a row what are the odds and by smaller he was talking 5 to 8 lb fish.
1mainiac Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 As to the AM class well it is called the cheaters ball by several people I know. I for one have no idea how any program other than clubbing the small ones off works in a no cull event. Perhaps they have retractable hooks on the lure like James Bond and can just push a button on the remote to dump small fish.
Rayman96 Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Perhaps when all is said and done, some of the tournament rules will change for the better.
1mainiac Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 I don't think the rules really are the problem it is people who spend time trying to avoid the rules that are the problem. It is sad that often even amongst friends you have to have strict rules to keep people from cheating. Just like the rest of the country and the world for that matter no matter how many laws you pass it still requires people to follow them. People willing to cheat to win will always be willing to cheat to win even if they have to find a new cheat or try to find a gray area where there really is none. If we have gotten to the point we need a team of lawyers to write a set of cheat proof rules it is time to give it up. Cause there will always be another set of lawyers writing how to cheat under those rules. Don't mean to sound like lawyers are the problem but the fact is they are not the solution either, honor and honesty have taken a beating this month in our sport. You should be able to look your fellow man or woman in the face give your word and be done with it no documents required but sadly that is not the world we live in.
Rayman96 Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Absolutely right!The culture has changed for the worse and unlikely we can do much about it.A cheating incident wiped out a derby and local club I once belonged to and loved. Sponsors and membership dried up real quick. We couldn't stop the bleeding.
1mainiac Posted July 29, 2010 Posted July 29, 2010 I posted this on GLA but would like some opinions from you guys on it. Can someone correct me if I am wrong but since cheating in a tourney is fraud and in the amount of the LOC it would be a felony. How would the Coast Guard deal with a charter captain commiting a felony in his chater boat? I understand they do background checks before you can even apply for a license but I don't know what they would do after you have one? It would seem to me that any offense which this type of offense is if I remember is listed on the questionaire that can provent you from obtaining a license should also be grounds to remove the same license. I guess that some of the guys that think cheating is no big deal should look at all the possible penalties for doing it. So here is my list of possible penalties feel free to add more or correct me if I am wrong.Cheating to win a 7500 dollar prize amounts to fruad at a felony level. Cheating by the Rule book is grounds for a lifetime ban from the event.Commiting a felony while using your charter boat possibly with paying customers on board should be grounds to lose your charter license. Aside from just plain being a low class way to win have I missed anything? This in no way is meant to imply Guilt or not I am not the judge here this is just to discuss the possible outcome. Since the rules state Cheaters will be punished to the fullest extent of the law How far can this really go? Under maritime law the captain is fully responsible for the actions of his crew.
GLF Posted July 29, 2010 Posted July 29, 2010 I posted this on GLA but would like some opinions from you guys on it. Can someone correct me if I am wrong but since cheating in a tourney is fraud and in the amount of the LOC it would be a felony. How would the Coast Guard deal with a charter captain commiting a felony in his chater boat? I understand they do background checks before you can even apply for a license but I don't know what they would do after you have one? It would seem to me that any offense which this type of offense is if I remember is listed on the questionaire that can provent you from obtaining a license should also be grounds to remove the same license. I guess that some of the guys that think cheating is no big deal should look at all the possible penalties for doing it. So here is my list of possible penalties feel free to add more or correct me if I am wrong.Cheating to win a 7500 dollar prize amounts to fruad at a felony level. Cheating by the Rule book is grounds for a lifetime ban from the event.Commiting a felony while using your charter boat possibly with paying customers on board should be grounds to lose your charter license. Aside from just plain being a low class way to win have I missed anything? This in no way is meant to imply Guilt or not I am not the judge here this is just to discuss the possible outcome. Since the rules state Cheaters will be punished to the fullest extent of the law How far can this really go? Under maritime law the captain is fully responsible for the actions of his crew.None of this would ever hold up in a court of law. No weights added, no fish tampering, no fish given to them, and no fish pulled from another cooler.There is no connection between Dave, Bill and myself. I have only met Dave and Bill at some of the shows, and it was only a general greeting, "hello" or "hi".I believe its time we get over this and move on.
1mainiac Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Unfortunatly Mike that is the problem way too many people just want to move on and get over it. Cheating to win or even cheating and still losing is fraud as long as we allow it to go away the problem will never go away. Letting this go if they are indeed guilty of culling fish just means it is ok to break the rules to win. Perhaps we should give them the money and the trophy back. Sooner or later someone has to grow a spine and as much as I am sorry it happened to BC2 cause I always looked up to them if there is no rules enforcement then why have the rules? Or should we just ignore it because they are the best or are they the best because they have been able to stretch the rules for a long time. They know full well they pushed the rules which is why they withdrew if I accused you of cheating would you just walk away? Or as they did say everyone does what we did so it should be ok. Personally I think anyone who cheats should have to live with the possibility of going to jail as well as losing the right to play anymore and this should apply to any sport where money is a prize. Cause apparently just being able to call them names for cheating does nothing to stop the cheating.
GLF Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I heard a story about a boat that was fishing a tourney with a 6 rod limit. They were not doing well and decided to put out more lines, even though they were "not planning" on weighing in their fish. What if another boat saw them with more rods out? What if they did not know the other boat was no longer in the event? Is it right that they put out more rods because the tourney was still going on, or would this be considered cheating? People need to look deeper into the picture before they go spouting out with all of the accusations of, he said, she said BS! No one but the the crew on the BCT, and the Tournament Trail directors knows what happened, what was discussed, and why the withdrawl. As far as I am concerned, a boat that is "near" that witnessed an event, is not close enough to what is going on to file a protest. I have not seen a single fact! Everything is hear say. Show me some proof! Show me some court documents, a sworn statement from the protestors, a statement from the Tournament Trail committee, or BCT. I have to see some proof before I label someone as guilty. Do you think the Tournament Trail has the money to take someone to court and lose? Do you think they did not discuss all of these options before they allowed BCT to withdraw? I am sure if they "thought" they could win in court, they would have prosecuted. I do not know what happened behind closed doors, and neither does anyone here. I can write a post on any website and make it read however I want it to read. This is why I do not believe everything I read on websites. Whatever happened to our legal rights? Innocent until proven guilty.
1mainiac Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Never once do I think I have said they or anyone else is guilty. That is not the point the point is when several suggest they should change the rules to stop cheating my point is that people who cheat will find a way around pretty much any rule. My other points have been what are the legal recourse's for those caught cheating. Because I can see that for some even multiple witness's are not enough to prove guilt. While for others the results would be different do any of you actually think if it was you and not BC2 you would have been allowed to walk away to fish again? I have Quit during a few events and went fishing since I would not weigh my fish and even paid my entry fee that is not cheating. Had I weighed in and accepted the prize I would be cheating. If I or anyone else chooses to withdraw from a event that is their right to do so but you don't do that after you win and accept the money and the trophy that my friend would be cheating. All of you guys know what it costs to fish these days so frankly if I am in a fun event that even winning won't cover my boat gas and I decide to give up and just fish who is harmed, the answer is no one it actually improves everyone elses chances of winning. Honestly the Oh well it's over lets move on attitude about this major black eye to our sport makes me wonder just how many really think it is no big deal and that everyone does it.
GLF Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I have not seen anything good come out of this thread. Nothing in it about changing the rules. Maybe someone talked about it on a different website, but all I have seen here are different posts on how BCT are cheaters, criminals and should be prosecuted. Any black eyes in the sport as a result of this belong to the Tournament Trail. They new what the fall out to the Tournament Trail, and the sport would be by allowing BCT to bow out. If they had a case they would have prosecuted. What about the city of Ludington...they had a steak in this also. No charges have been filed by them either. Lots of rummors going around.....someone saw this and saw that, people can say this, and say that. Here is a fact everyone can spread around. No charges have been filed against BCT by the city of Ludington or the Tournament Trail!Our justice system has failed when someone is guilty of a crime without a trial. BCT is not guilty of anything until there is a court ruling convicting them of a crime!
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